The new bike I picked up came with a 12mm carb with 51 slide 2 ring pin on the second lowest setting and the rich 2.12a atomizer and 50 jet. And I thought ok I have extra 14 and 15mm bings and extra 14 and 15mm intakes... the intake on the cylinder is 12mm too!!! So would a bigger carb even matter??
Yeah and I'm gonna clean it up lol
If it’s the 1hp cylinder just throw it away and get a better cylinder.
That sounds like 1.5 hp specs, pipe and other restrictions, you have work to do.
The Intake hole on hi torque cylinders looks 12mm but it not, measure it you will find they are 14mm+ but you can open it up more easIly
When you remove the cylinder to decarbonize You’ll want to remove the thick 1.5hp head gasket if it has one and put the .2 mm thin one treats sells, then inspect everything like rings, ring gap, cylinder bore etc. then you can dremel intake hole on the outside to at least 15 mm,
The stock tall 14 mm bing Za50 intakes are over 14mm already but you can dremel/bore them to 15 mm and use the 14-15mm carb but you can’t use the stock exhaust pipe or air box because of the restrictions so get a circuit type lowend type pipe and metal mesh filter.
You could follow these directions to get to 2hp if it works/not worth the work as far as I’m concerned, a aftermarket pipe and filter is way more power for less work.
https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Puch_horsepower_differences
If the cylinder and piston are in spec I would run a circuit pipe, metal mesh filter, 14mm bing and intake around 72 jet with 222 atomizer, less jet with 212a atomizer if it works good, possible single embossed ring leaner needle.
If You use 15mm bing then open up intake pipe to 15mm try 78 jet 217 atomizer, I would sand the head flat (it’s like 1.7-2mm) removing compression rings for a bit more power.
If cylinder is out of spec I’d go with the TCCD 50 cc kit and 15 mm bing, 14° timing and 35 tooth rear sprocket
clutch tuning with the tccd too
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> That sounds like 1.5 hp specs, pipe and other restrictions, you have
> work to do.
>
> The Intake hole on hi torque cylinders looks 12mm but it not, measure it
> you will find they are 14mm+ but you can open it up more easIly
>
> When you remove the cylinder to decarbonize You’ll want to remove the
> thick 1.5hp head gasket if it has one and put the .2 mm thin one treats
> sells, then inspect everything like rings, ring gap, cylinder bore etc.
> then you can dremel intake hole on the outside to at least 15 mm,
>
> The stock tall 14 mm bing Za50 intakes are over 14mm already but you can
> dremel/bore them to 15 mm and use the 14-15mm carb but you can’t use the
> stock exhaust pipe or air box because of the restrictions so get a
> circuit type lowend type pipe and metal mesh filter.
>
> You could follow these directions to get to 2hp if it works/not worth
> the work as far as I’m concerned, a aftermarket pipe and filter is way
> more power for less work.
>
> https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Puch_horsepower_differences
>
> If the cylinder and piston are in spec I would run a circuit pipe, metal
> mesh filter, 14mm bing and intake around 72 jet with 222 atomizer, less
> jet with 212a atomizer if it works good, possible single embossed ring
> leaner needle.
>
> If You use 15mm bing then open up intake pipe to 15mm try 78 jet 217
> 7 atomizer, I would sand the head flat (it’s like 1.7-2mm) removing
> compression rings for a bit more power.
>
> If cylinder is out of spec I’d go with the TCCD 50 cc kit and 15 mm
> m bing, 14° timing and 35 tooth rear sprocket
Perfect! Thanks Fred!! I did pick up 2 tccd and put one on my Murray and the other is for my son's bike for Christmas. I may have to get him another one. I need a new pipe any way, this one is pretty bad. (edited)
I've only fucked with the tccd50 twice and both times it was people who had slapped it on and couldn't get them to run right so they brought it to me. I never was happy with how they ran so I avoided it for years.
Finally bought another one to try on a ZA (with reeds) thinking that might be better. They are over ported out of the box and are touchy to tune with bad low end so I don't recommend it to beginners... But maybe on the ZA it's better? I dunno there are lots of threads bitching about that kit on here.
I've been installing the airsal 44 as a stock replacement for a few years now, it's almost foolproof to tune, didn't need any case match and has a nice flat stock power band just healthier. I put one full slap-on a ZA and it ran great and ripped until the stock case seals went bad. Now it's on an e50 that I loan out or ride to the farmers market or whatever and I have another one chilling on the shelf for a back up motor.
Weld the hood shut stocker stylin'
> Graham Motzing wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> I've only fucked with the tccd50 twice and both times it was people who
> had slapped it on and couldn't get them to run right so they brought it
> to me. I never was happy with how they ran so I avoided it for years.
>
> Finally bought another one to try on a ZA (with reeds) thinking that
> t might be better. They are over ported out of the box and are touchy to
> tune with bad low end so I don't recommend it to beginners... But maybe
> on the ZA it's better? I dunno there are lots of threads bitching about
> that kit on here.
T
>
> I've been installing the airsal 44 as a stock replacement for a few
> years now, it's almost foolproof to tune, didn't need any case match and
> has a nice flat stock power band just healthier. I put one full slap-on
> a ZA and it ran great and ripped until the stock case seals went bad.
> Now it's on an e50 that I loan out or ride to the farmers market or
> whatever and I have another one chilling on the shelf for a back up
> motor.
>
> Weld the hood shut stocker stylin'
Sorry graham every airsal kit is mediocre compared to Polini, Mallosi, dmp, gila, athena, and almost every other kit that you never touched!
Just because you can’t tune ripping cylinder set ups, or maybe because you’re biased because the mediocre airsal kits didn’t seize on you with your slow bullet pipes setups, and other stuff because you didn’t know or do timing situation per set up don’t mean doink!
You don’t have the experience to know what you could get out of almost any pipe, carb, cylinder combination and detail it right!
That doesn't mean that a tccd 50 cc is bad, all it means is you didn’t do enough of them to know their characteristics so being bias don’t mean they’re bad,
I mean no offense Because as far as your engineering skills are up there but you don’t have the tuning experience that many Moped/Single cylinder 2T people like me have (Five decades) which is older you are!
Almost any kit, carb, pipe combination is biased in your posts other then airsal!
Just because you blow stuff up don’t mean it’s bad.
I’m biased in my posts with many brands and things because I look at the overall picture of years you can get out of a bike and costs, not just fast setup that lasts minutes Before it locks up and leaving you stranded!
There is no other cheap piston port Puch 50cc kit I would get except for a TCCD With for the exception of Athena 62c Which is not cheap or50cc or 50cc Athena reed Kit which requires modifications to the piston and is not cheap either!
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Graham Motzing wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I've only fucked with the tccd50 twice and both times it was people
> who
>
> > had slapped it on and couldn't get them to run right so they brought
> it
>
> > to me. I never was happy with how they ran so I avoided it for years.
>
> >
>
> > Finally bought another one to try on a ZA (with reeds) thinking that
>
> > t might be better. They are over ported out of the box and are touchy
> to
>
> > tune with bad low end so I don't recommend it to beginners... But
> maybe
>
> > on the ZA it's better? I dunno there are lots of threads bitching
> about
>
> > that kit on here.
>
> T
>
> >
>
> > I've been installing the airsal 44 as a stock replacement for a few
>
> > years now, it's almost foolproof to tune, didn't need any case match
> and
>
> > has a nice flat stock power band just healthier. I put one full
> slap-on
>
> > a ZA and it ran great and ripped until the stock case seals went bad.
>
> > Now it's on an e50 that I loan out or ride to the farmers market or
>
> > whatever and I have another one chilling on the shelf for a back up
>
> > motor.
>
> >
>
> > Weld the hood shut stocker stylin'
>
> Sorry graham every airsal kit is mediocre compared to Polini, Mallosi,
> dmp, gila, athena, and almost every other kit that you never touched!
>
> Just because you can’t tune ripping cylinder set ups, or maybe because
> you’re biased because the mediocre airsal kits didn’t seize on you with
> your slow bullet pipes setups, and other stuff because you didn’t know
> or do timing situation per set up don’t mean doink!
>
> You don’t have the experience to know what you could get out of almost
> any pipe, carb, cylinder combination and detail it right!
>
> That doesn't mean that a tccd 50 cc is bad, all it means is you didn’t
> do enough of them to know their characteristics so being bias don’t mean
> they’re bad,
>
> I mean no offense Because as far as your engineering skills are up there
> but you don’t have the tuning experience that many Moped/Single cylinder
> 2T people like me have (Five decades) which is older you are!
>
> Almost any kit, carb, pipe combination is biased in your posts other
> then airsal!
>
> Just because you blow stuff up don’t mean it’s bad.
>
> I’m biased in my posts with many brands and things because I look at the
> overall picture of years you can get out of a bike and costs, not just
> fast setup that lasts minutes Before it locks up and leaving you
> stranded!
>
> There is no other cheap piston port Puch 50cc kit I would get except for
> a TCCD With for the exception of Athena 62c Which is not cheap or50cc
> or 50cc Athena reed Kit which requires modifications to the piston and
> is not cheap either!
I bought one and my Murray loves it, so happy with it. Treats told me that if I used the tccd the za50 has a nub you have to grind down to use it?? Not taken the head off yet but not sure what nub they are talking about.
The pucks fell apart when I took the plate off too. So messy.
This nub is on many Za50s and can be chipped off with screwdriver and hammer or dremeled but make sure you put something like Playdoe, paper towels or something to keep the pieces from getting into the crankcase.
Make sure all the pieces are blown out or removed if you do get any in crankcase
Don't dremel or grind the oil injector hump Use a tall Za50 intake, you can take a short e50 intake, cut base off, sand it smooth and sandwich it with gaskets to another short Ee50 intake to make a taller one.
You can Bore or a dremel out your tall 12 mm intake or post to buy a 14mm intake on buy+sell, treats has 14-15 mm tall intakes sometimes too
New pucks and second clutch flipped and all cleaned up torque time!!
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
Ken mopeds ain't rocket surgery. You don't need 5 decades to figure out how to tune a weed eater on wheels. Come out on a ride sometime and see how those conservative setups get dusted. I guarantee you don't have any magic secrets that we didn't all figure out 3 years into this, you just build slow bikes and never ride with anyone else to compare.
I don't know what you have against the airsal 44, if I want to build something fast i build a polini or ajh, it's a stock replacement cylinder that bolts on with zero issues. It's even got the notch for the tab in the za motor. Stock crank, stock carb, none of the jumping through hoops.
I try not to tell people what to do on here, I am just saying what my experience has been. I've seen lots of posts over the years confirming my experience with the tccd50 but I'm stoked to build another za this winter and try it out. Jurrian Mulder shared some pictures with me of how he ported one and it's very similar to what I was thinking so it will be fun to try.
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This nub is on many Za50s and can be chipped off with screwdriver and
> hammer or dremeled but make sure you put something like Playdoe, paper
> towels or something to keep the pieces from getting into the crankcase.
>
> Make sure all the pieces are blown out or removed if you do get any in
> crankcase
>
> Don't dremel or grind the oil injector hump Use a tall Za50 intake, you
> can take a short e50 intake, cut base off, sand it smooth and sandwich
> it with gaskets to another short Ee50 intake to make a taller one.
>
> You can Bore or a dremel out your tall 12 mm intake or post to buy a
> 14mm intake on buy+sell, treats has 14-15 mm tall intakes sometimes too
Ahhh, yeah I think I would have noticed that nub. Thanks!!
I sent some rough measurements to Wirthit and he made me a ZA50 height intake for a common square port aftermarket cylinder. The available aluminum ZA50 intakes are all round port that I know of.
The Wirthit intakes are nice to have when doing jet changes. The carb never heat soaks. I've got a few of them in use with 15 Bings and PHBG's on both ZA50 and E50 engines.
Got everything cleaned up, torqued everything down. Put the cover on and the crank won't turn. I'm thinking the metal shavings that was in the transmission (can't figure out where they came from)... so my brain and looking at the service manual says that I need to re-shim, I have extra shims now BUT if something was shaved like the tip of the clutch side would a thicker shim even matter?? And in the process the original clutch cover gasket ripped and I do have a new one from treats but it is thicker than the original, is that gonna get it out of wack??
I know it's kind of dumb but this is one reason that I really like to pull the motor for this job there are a few places that clips and shims like to get hung up on the crankshaft when you are working on the motor in a vertical orientation.
The shimming should not have changed from what you did so take it all apart and pay really close attention when you are sliding the splined washers that go between the clutches on the crankshaft.
It could be a few different things but the most likely culprit is that the splined washer that goes against the second gear clutch didn't set into place quite right and it is bound up. You can give the clutches a little wiggle by hand and feel then get tight as the nut gets tight on the crank, but the second gear clutch should still spin freely.
You can also turn the flywheel on one side as you tighten up the side cover to identify binding due to insufficient end play clearances .
You really got to pay attention as you put these together and make sure everything is settled into place. Print out the page from the manual and make sure all the shims and stuff are in the right places.
Take cover off and see if everything moves with out it on
I took the cover off, and it's all good now. I had to turn the peddle while putting the cover on to lift the crank into the bearing...
I filled the transmission fluid last night, and woke up to the exhaust leaking... I'm guessing there is a bad seal..
Yikes. Well. If the crank has enough play that you needed to rotate it to fit the end into the transmission case bearing, and you were initially able to install the transmission case without those pieces lined up, it's likely you need new crank seals as well as new bearings. Rebuild time :/
Yeah I don't really understand the part about rotating the crank into place. I've seen some fucked up za's and I've never seen one where the crank won't go into the bearings on the cover. Think I'm just misunderstand what you're saying.
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, oil cold be dripping out somewhere else or leftover from the build, just get it together stock for now and see if it will run. Definitely don't mess with a kit until you get the bottom end sealed up and sorted out.
> Graham Motzing wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah I don't really understand the part about rotating the crank into
> place. I've seen some fucked up za's and I've never seen one where the
> crank won't go into the bearings on the cover. Think I'm just
> misunderstand what you're saying.
>
> I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet, oil cold be dripping out
> somewhere else or leftover from the build, just get it together stock
> for now and see if it will run. Definitely don't mess with a kit until
> you get the bottom end sealed up and sorted out.
The crank was drooping just a bit. Should there be any play in it?
When servicing the trans on the bike the Inside parts do hang down a bit
I just move the rear wheel if cover hung up on that main gear bearing and or turn flywheel if hung on the clutch bell bearing but for me most times it’s main gear hanging down a mm.
Just like two weeks ago when I took apart the transmission on my gila magnum because I felt excess vibration.
My my two speed driving plate the gear came loose
and also damaged the thrust washer,
I glued the gear back on the drive plate and put a new thrust washer in. When putting on the sidecover on it hung up a little bit so I had to move the rear wheel and then it popped all the way in,
The sludge was from a very dirty exhaust, started right up on the first try and my son looked at me and smiled and I smiled back. Purring like a kitten. New pipe will be derived Wednesday. And I think it will be warm enough to test ride it tomorrow.
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> When servicing the trans on the bike the Inside parts do hang down a bit
>
> I just move the rear wheel if cover hung up on that main gear bearing
> and or turn flywheel if hung on the clutch bell bearing but for me most
> times it’s main gear hanging down a mm.
>
> Just like two weeks ago when I took apart the transmission on my gila
> magnum because I felt excess vibration.
>
> My my two speed driving plate the gear came loose
>
> and also damaged the thrust washer,
>
> I glued the gear back on the drive plate and put a new thrust washer in.
> When putting on the sidecover on it hung up a little bit so I had to
> move the rear wheel and then it popped all the way in,
I want your za50 tools lol they are 90 on treats and I wish I had gotten them with the coupon with the 2 pipes I got.
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This nub is on many Za50s and can be chipped off with screwdriver and
> hammer or dremeled but make sure you put something like Playdoe, paper
> towels or something to keep the pieces from getting into the crankcase.
>
> Make sure all the pieces are blown out or removed if you do get any in
> crankcase
>
> Don't dremel or grind the oil injector hump Use a tall Za50 intake, you
> can take a short e50 intake, cut base off, sand it smooth and sandwich
> it with gaskets to another short Ee50 intake to make a taller one.
>
> You can Bore or a dremel out your tall 12 mm intake or post to buy a
> 14mm intake on buy+sell, treats has 14-15 mm tall intakes sometimes too
How far back do I chip the nub off? All the way back?
> Graham Motzing wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know what you have against the airsal 44, if I want to build
> something fast i build a polini or ajh, it's a stock replacement
> cylinder that bolts on with zero issues. It's even got the notch for the
> tab in the za motor. Stock crank, stock carb, none of the jumping
> through hoops.
This was not my experience with the airsal 44 on my ZA. The piston skirt just barely kissed the little shelves by the transfers at bdc. It turned over OK by hand and I didn't notice it at first, but after a few seconds of running the piston hit those shelves hard and sent shrapnel all over the inside of the motor. That was not a fun rebuild.
Wow I wonder if my thikk karopak base gasket was enough to bump it over the edge?
Also it seems like every za I've got is cast/machined slightly different in that area. I might have just got lucky. I've only done the airsal on the za once.
Could be! I used the base gasket from the kit, which is made of pretty thin stuff.
> Probably Fred wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> When servicing the trans on the bike the Inside parts do hang down a bit
>
> I just move the rear wheel if cover hung up on that main gear bearing
> and or turn flywheel if hung on the clutch bell bearing but for me most
> times it’s main gear hanging down a mm.
>
> Just like two weeks ago when I took apart the transmission on my gila
> magnum because I felt excess vibration.
>
> My my two speed driving plate the gear came loose
>
> and also damaged the thrust washer,
>
> I glued the gear back on the drive plate and put a new thrust washer in.
> When putting on the sidecover on it hung up a little bit so I had to
> move the rear wheel and then it popped all the way in,
I've got access vibration now after letting off the gas on the clutch side. This thing has really made me appreciate the E50... LOL
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