TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Alex Tea /

Sep 12, 2021 08:05PM

Hi all,

I've just rebuilt my Puch E50 engine with a TCCD kit. It fires up okay, but I am bad at the tuning part. Please have mercy on my soul. Any help is appreciated. Here is the setup:

Treatland super stuffy crank, 4x nachi bearings, viton seals

50cc TCCD kit (no case matching)

Treat's o-ring head for TCCD (less compression/sport touring version)

Treatmetric jammer clutch V6.4 (using the medium springs)

bing clone 15mm carb (using the included 2.17 atomizer)

Treat's standard bing hi-flow foam filter

Exhaust: Treatland's own "Treat pipe version 1"

Current Settings:

Timing: Currently set at 15 degrees BTDC. Measured with a multimeter.

Points Gap: 4mm, very slight drag. Set with feeler gauges.

Jetting: 2.17 atomizer, single band needle at 2nd notch from the top. 74 Jet.

Clutch: The clutch came with the light springs on it, I upped them to medium.

Gearing: 12/45. Yeah, yeah, I know. I care not for speed. I want as much torque as I can get. (I'm in Appalachia.) I tried 15/45 and didn't notice much difference, which tracks since I'm getting very little power out of it. See below.

Spark Plug: NGK B7HS

How it's running: I started with a 72 jet, and it had trouble starting. Upped it to a 74, and she fires up reasonably well. Idle RPM seems a teensy bit low, but certainly okay. I would up to a 76, but it four strokes when I release the throttle after revving it, and I've always been told that's an indicator that the mix is right. Needle is at the 2nd notch from the top, and it doesn't seem to like other positions very much for idling speed. I have checked for air leaks, and only found one (at the intake/carb connection.) It has been sealed up nice and tight now.

Currently, I have very little power coming out, and it has trouble getting into high RPM or even medium band. On flat ground, it does run, and seems to do okay once it gets into a high enough RPM range. However, the second it has any extra work to do, it bogs down. Even the slightest incline makes it want to bog to the point of stalling. The engine seems to run pretty cold too, don't think I've been able to get it over 265 degrees even at WOT. Increasing the clutch to medium springs helped a tiny bit, and changing my 15t sprocket to 12t helped a tiny bit too. But the main problem is clearly with my engine setup.

My best guess is that my timing is shit, or I'm misinformed about jetting. I understand timing in principle, but don't have the experience to tell what symptoms I would be looking for. What the symptoms would be, etc. What I've found on multiple sites seems a bit contradictory and not very clear. Any advice would be appreciated. (edited)

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

pat splat /

ggspeed

Sep 12, 2021 10:32PM

Is the 4mm point gap a typo? Cuz thats crazy.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Chris Straub /

straubzilla

Sep 12, 2021 10:37PM

> pat splat Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Is the 4mm point gap a typo? Cuz thats crazy.

Was going to ask the same thing

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Alex Tea /

alexjt OP

Sep 12, 2021 10:51PM

D’oh! Yep, typo. I meant 0.4mm, about 16 thou.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Probably Fred /

roffman

Sep 12, 2021 11:15PM

Pitch the boss pipe, the foam filter and the feeble springs.

Run a circuit pipe or other torquey pipe, use mesh filter that has more surface area, use thick clutch springs 3 turns in if stock clutch (aftermarket clutch will bend with thick springs) run synthetic motor oil not type F fluid unless aftermarket clutch,

Use 16-18 thou gap on points not 4mm, find top dead center correctly, time with a timing light with engine running at speed snapping opening the points not the static way guessing what the timing will be when it’s running.

You should be at near 78 jet if you have a 15mm intake (Make sure the intake it’s free from casting flash blocking inside), higher elevation I could see lower 76 jet though, run a leaner single ring needle,

But a clone carburetor is not the same as a real Bing so you may never get it jetted perfect, run at least 15x45 gears unless you only want to go 15 mph, if your engine and clutch is tuned correctly you could probably even run higher gearing

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Chris Straub /

straubzilla

Sep 13, 2021 02:54AM

> Probably Fred Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Pitch the boss pipe, the foam filter and the feeble springs.

>

> Run a circuit pipe or other torquey pipe, use mesh filter that has more

> surface area, use thick clutch springs 3 turns in if stock clutch

> (aftermarket clutch will bend with thick springs) run synthetic motor

> oil not type F fluid unless aftermarket clutch,

>

> Use 16-18 thou gap on points not 4mm, find top dead center correctly,

> time with a timing light with engine running at speed snapping opening

> the points not the static way guessing what the timing will be when it’s

> running.

>

> You should be at near 78 jet if you have a 15mm intake (Make sure the

> intake it’s free from casting flash blocking inside), higher elevation I

> could see lower 76 jet though, run a leaner single ring needle,

>

> But a clone carburetor is not the same as a real Bing so you may never

> get it jetted perfect, run at least 15x45 gears unless you only want to

> go 15 mph, if your engine and clutch is tuned correctly you could

> probably even run higher gearing

All very true! But still something seems WAY off at this point for it to be running as badly as described…something major happening to be addressed before tuning.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

daan SJAARLOOS /

sjaarloos

Sep 13, 2021 03:58AM

How did you set the timing?

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Alex Tea /

alexjt OP

Sep 13, 2021 10:00AM

I set it by attaching a multimeter to the outputs of the points. Using the continuity setting, I rotated the flywheel. It beeps when the contacts are closed, so the point in rotation when that beep stops indicates when the points are opened. It's the most accurate way I know of to set initial timing.

Having said that, Ken is saying the timing light method is needed, as it's different when the engine is running. I didn't know that, so I'll pick up a timing light and check it again. I suppose it's also possible the timing slipped? Might as well double check the points gap while I'm in there.

I'll also try jetting richer as Ken suggested.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Alex Tea /

alexjt OP

Sep 13, 2021 10:37AM

> use thick clutch springs 3 turns in if stock clutch (aftermarket clutch will bend with > thick springs) run synthetic motor oil not type F fluid unless aftermarket clutch,

I'm using the treatmetric jammer clutch, which has no screws to turn for fine adjustments. My understanding is that due to the design, this clutch can't really bend under thick springs. Maybe I'll swap out to the thick springs if that's the case?

> Use 16-18 thou gap on points not 4mm, find top dead center correctly, time with

> a timing light with engine running at speed snapping opening the points not the

> static way guessing what the timing will be when it’s running.

Sorry, that was a typo. I was at .4mm, so a tad over 16 thou. I will double check that the points haven't slipped or anything though. I didn't know that timing changes while the engine is on! I guess that makes sense. Time to go get a timing light and check again. (TDC was marked with a reliable dial indicator using a machined screw-in adapter, so we can rule that out.)

> You should be at near 78 jet if you have a 15mm intake (Make sure the intake it’s

> free from casting flash blocking inside), higher elevation I could see lower 76 jet

> though, run a leaner single ring needle,

I'll give that a shot too. My test run this morning jives with that as well. Just checked the plug after doing a run at WOT. There's a small about of fairly dry carbon, but under that the insulator is still white. No brown to be found.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Ryan Graeme /

bigrvg

Sep 13, 2021 01:52PM

Might benefit from the slide mod? But timing with the light might solve it.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Graham Motzing /

Go to branch

grahammotzing

Sep 13, 2021 07:43PM

So I don't actually have a whole lot in the way of advice except to say that this was exactly my results when I tried one of these years and years ago. I ended up going back to a ported stock cylinder and always avoided them. I worked on a couple that other people had built and brought me to tune and I got them working okay but basically as stock setups.

I think they are just ported weird, when I have overported stock cylinders before they run like this just very soggy in the mid-range and can't get enough steam to pull out of it. Too much intake. I have a sachs right now that someone cut the Piston off too much and it runs the same way.

I did actually buy another tccd50 a few weeks ago to try with a read valve I'm going to use a proma circuit and probably an SHA or maybe a mikuni 16 clone carb from a pw80. I think that they just can't get enough heat into the port to light up a big pipe so something with a smaller header will work better they also need a crazy amount of compression to build heat. I'm hoping the Reed valve mod and windowing the piston will let me just focus on getting the exhaust port to work by itself, and I can actually make those big transfer ports work the way they should.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

daan SJAARLOOS /

sjaarloos

Sep 14, 2021 12:19PM

You don't need a timing light to set the timing. Just a quick recheck with some calipers in the sparkplug hole should do teh trick. Then I'm actually lost what causes this problem

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Alex Tea /

alexjt OP

Sep 17, 2021 10:58PM

Hey all,

So after some experiments and taking the 'ped down to the local moped shop, I've pretty much settled on what some of the issues were. Much like Ken and Graham said, the guys at the shop said to pass on the clone carb, foam filter, and more aggressive treatland pipe. It's much better to got with a smaller pipe that matches the restrictions of the cyclinder, and makes up a bit for the bad low end. Which brings us to today's tests!

I'm now running a genuine Bing 15mm with a 68 main jet, an MLM "velocity stack" style filter, and a used pipe that I'm pretty sure is a proma circuit pipe, judging from it matching the pics on treatland. Lemme tell ya, the difference is really somethin', folks. She starts great, idles great and is fun and fast....as long as you're on flat ground.

The thing about living in Pittsburgh is that there's uh....not much flat ground to be had here. So starting on a hill from a stop is just not gonna happen with the current setup. I'm pretty sure the next step is going to be tuning the clutch. As I've said before, I'm using the Treatmetric 3 shoe clutch, and with the tests today I was still using medium springs. I'm pretty sure that the heavy springs (as Ken already mentioned) will help, but as always, I'm all ears for any advice you all have!

Thanks so much for all the help already, I'm learning a lot!

Cheers,

Alex

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

* wormdirt * /

wormdirt

Sep 18, 2021 01:21AM

Dig into clutch tuning, will the hazards that come with it, IE bent posts, roasting bells, wallowing the starter clutch... Engagement points? I dunno what to call them. Enjoy a tried and true setup

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Jay Rivett /

bjaockx

Sep 18, 2021 02:24AM

I have always liked the tccd 70cc kits I have had. Not any experience with the 50cc one.

I did cut out the inake and piston for a reed setup on my 70cc, I think it really woke up the kit. I bet it would help out the 50cc one too.

Re: TCCD kit tuning mea culpa

Graham Motzing /

Go to branch

grahammotzing

Sep 18, 2021 09:26AM

That's great to hear, you're on the right track. For Pittsburgh you might want to sell the puch and buy a hobbit, I'm serious. A single speed bike will never be able to keep up with those crazy hills.

The thing about clutch tuning, the clutch is acting like a torque converter, it lets the engine spin faster where it makes more torque, and it outputs that higher torque at a lower speed to the rear wheel.

This is good because you get more torque to the rear wheel to get going, but you are turning all that extra power into heat, (rpm in- rpm out)x torque(/5252)= wasted HP turned into heat.

For a 50 tccd you barely have any torque to begin with so you've gotta be really crafty with how you apply it. I haven't used the jammer but my inclination is that it's going to be harder to tune since you can't just turn a screw to tune it. You might be better with the stock clutch using dos cycles springs.

You also gotta make sure that carb is tuned in perfecto, you might still need to play with needles, slides and atomizers, and adjust the needle settings.

Just remember when that clutch is slipping it's wasting power, tune to make the best low end that you can, then find the gearing and clutch tuning that will harness the power. You might even have to gear down from stock gearing to something like 14*45 if you want to climb those hills. The crank won't like it so plan on a new one with a full rebuild in the near future.

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