Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

So if you’ve seen my posts on here for years you’ll know that I’m not a huge fan of V1’s. There are a number of reasons for this but the #1 problem I have with them is the clutch. I don’t like a lot of things about the design but mostly I don’t like the weak starter clutch arrangement, I don’t like how the clutch shoes themselves are setup, and I really don’t like the riveted pin design that I’ve seen fail numerous times. I’ve never really dug that deep into them, but I’ve built a couple with the big PP kits over the years and I was always frustrated that I couldn’t get the clutching to behave in a way that I thought was acceptable.

Fast forward to a few months ago, I started working on a V1 based cylinder project with Blake @ Dos. I got to the point where I need to test this setup so I picked up a motron for cheap and I got a Kickstart engine from DOS to solve the starter clutch problem, a roller taper crank from DOS to solve the stub-plane crank problem, and after posting THIS THREAD a couple people hit me up and told me to check out the Botanas V1 clutch at Dos Cycles

Since there isn’t much info out there on it, I wanted to start a thread to show what this clutch is about and get some feed back from anyone else that’s run it.

Here is the clutch in question

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Its roughly a ‘ktm design’ with 3 shoes on a triangular center hub, similar to the ktm a single bolt secures the shoe to the hub with a spring.

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The back side has a flat plate which will allow you to run it with pedal start. It’s a machine finish so it should grip pretty good but you might still want to rough it up a bit.

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The starter plate means that the whole clutch is narrower, the shoes are narrower and therefore have a smaller hole for the bolt.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

As a result instead of a hex head bolt like the standard ktm, they have a socket head bolt.

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On mine 1 had a low profile socket and one had a button head. Both of them are m6 plain bolts with a m4 drive, which seems kinda chincy.

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Instead of a shoulder (knockoff KTM) or a spacer (og ktm) they are using a plain bolt that is actually bottomed out into the tapped hole and secured with red Loctite. AT low spring pressures and load this is probably acceptable. Since it’s a fairly light coil spring, I reckon this would hold up decently right out of the box.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Compared to the KTM clutch, the only dimension that is the same is the outside diameter (bell diameter, effective overall) and the rough guide pins/center bolt dimension. The shoes won't exactly swap, in fact nothing on either of the clutches will swap 1:1 with the other without some modification, but it could be easily done.

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The KTM shoes don’t quite fit, they are substantially wider and more burly.

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This KTM clutch (china knockoff) uses the shoulder bolt, the head of the shoulder bolt is too big for the Botanas clutch but length wise it works. The botanas clutch doesn't have enough room for a shoulder bolt and the springs and washers needed without boring out the hole bigger. Since the shoe is narrower i think that would weaken the already thin sides and it might crack, but you might be able to squeeze it in there.

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Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Finally, this is the piece that we were talking about in the other thread. It would be trivially easy to make this, this one looks homemade, hard to say if it was ever run or not like this. Its just a tapered bushing pressed into the hole and machined to the correct (smaller) inner size to go onto the V1 crank.

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Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

If anyone has any experience or tunign tips for this botanas clutch, i'm all ears. I'm going to have to buy another china KTM clutch to get some of the parts i'm missing to make this work, and i'm also going to source some hardware store/mcmaster springs like some people talked about in the other KTM e50 thread, and see if i cant get these to work.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

Look up the Dadalt clutches from South America,

I think Dadalt is morini but not sure

Anyways they look like KTM

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

I think I have one of the early ones since I bought it before they were for sale on the website. I've had quite a bit of trouble with it. Multiple rounds of loctite of blue and red variety and it's always tossed a bolt after a very low number of miles.

That being said, I think this would be a great performance replacement with a little alteration. I think the open, full thread bolt is the weak point because it has to rely on the threads holding the whole things together. Yes, you can bottom it out but, when I did that with mine, it would barely grab the preload was so high.

I need to think about this more but shoulder bolts are on my list as that can help set preload while bottoming out on the top and holding the threads tighter.

Or maybe I just suck at clutches, I don't know.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Blake Totally a real doctor /

The ktm clutch is an OEM Dadalt clutch with a taper adapter slapped in. Ed imported them many years ago.

The shallow head hardware on one is fully bottom out. I found some that I think holds up. Have it in a scooty powered v1 and at least in the mileage so far seems to hold but its not exactly a daily rider. I definitely believe there is a better solution though. Seems like a lot to ask of the bolts lol.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

Why is there no V1 jammer clutch

Has anyone tried making a stock V1 clutch out of high grade aluminum or whatever is strong enough (I'm not a metal scientist) but also light?

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Not being a v1 guy is the issues people want to run ktm clutches but the starter plate on pedal start means the extra width makes it not work?

But on a kick start the issue is not a problem?

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

I was looking at it today again, it's not a modified KTM, it doesn't have the kickstart drive on it, it does look like the same style of forging so maybe it's adapted from another mass market kiddy dirt bike application? I dunno, cool either way.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

todd amundson /

Go this route. The pictures are of the 1977 super clutch. Pretty sure it’s the same on those V1 things. The main problem with these clutches is that the pins are garbage and don’t fit right. If you take apart a KTM clutch you can tell the shoe is pretty tight on those posts.The posts are what’s taking the load entirely. New size is M6.8x14. You do have to drill out the shoes to M7 and glue them in. That little garbage screw works as good as any screw in these clutches if the shoes have the right size posts in them. I only use the stock Chinese KTM clone clutch screws now. It’s an M6 shoulder screw. The springs I use are a half an inch outer diameter. The shoe needs to be reamed out with a half inch bit. You don’t need a drill for it. Just spin the shoe on the bit.

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Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Awesome that's exactly the kind of thing I was trolling for... You know the old trick where nobody will give up the info until you post the wrong info then everyone shows up to correct you?

Haha

I looked a bit closer at that last night and you're totally right, they are sloppy as hell.

Ran into another problem building the bottom end, damn crank bushing to the clutch bell is way too small. Do they have different clutch bells or are they just different bushings? Am I safe just boring the thing out in a lathe?

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

It's hardened steel in the gear/bushing area but yeah as long as you use a bushing not a bearing should be all good

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Nah boring out the brass bushing, currently it's 13mm id x 17 OD by 27L, I need it to be 14 mm id.

Oh yeah just looked it up, I just need the other bushing, no biggie.

Also some shimmy shimmy

Gol darn V1s I tell ya

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

Oh yeah V1s are easy once you remember there's 80 variants of the same basic part for some of them

Shims should be pretty standard idk I just run the bushing till it's worn out then put a freshy in

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

> 🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Oh yeah V1s are easy once you remember there's 80 variants of the same

> basic part for some of them

>

I know you can't see it over the internet but I'm making a face.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Sander Mulder /

> todd amundson Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Go this route. The pictures are of the 1977 super clutch. Pretty sure

> it’s the same on those V1 things. The main problem with these clutches

> is that the pins are garbage and don’t fit right. If you take apart a

> KTM clutch you can tell the shoe is pretty tight on those posts.The

> posts are what’s taking the load entirely. New size is M6.8x14. You do

> have to drill out the shoes to M7 and glue them in. That little garbage

> screw works as good as any screw in these clutches if the shoes have

> the right size posts in them. I only use the stock Chinese KTM clone

> clutch screws now. It’s an M6 shoulder screw. The springs I use are a

> half an inch outer diameter. The shoe needs to be reamed out with a half

> inch bit. You don’t need a drill for it. Just spin the shoe on the bit.

I wouldn’t use those chinese screws, i have had too many problems with those things broken in half. Another solution is normal screws with bushings around.

I don’t know it u use them already, but i would tune the clutch by adding shims under the springs for more preload.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Scottee doesn't know. /

I got on of these botanas clutch and has been waiting for the project to move along.

Time has com!! .....and it's (of course) keeping me from having fun.

Where are we at with spring tension? I'm getting zero engagement.

Just pulled the clutch and adjust bolts to 3 turns in from flush with pads. Still nada.

:-(

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Dirty30 Dillon /

The bolts don't adjust spring tension, they merely afix the shoe to the hub.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

my review of the 1977/DOS E50 superclutch was very thorough on ways to make it better.its not easy and because of all the aftermarket parts you have to buy, the treatmetric clutch is actually cheaper and far easier to tune.

it seems my review was deleted...it was at best constructive criticism.

i did not mess with the Pins and completely agree they are a problem too. once you get it all tuned up and it stops falling apart, it likes to get bound up and stuck engaged.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Scottee doesn't know. /

Great. Sounds like it all might just be easier to go modified stock clutch.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

You're getting no engagement? Are the shoes free to move out? Everything is tight on the shafts?

Right out of the box it ought to work

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

the only way to tune these things is swap out springs, pre-load the springs, and finally the shoe bolt needs to be torqed down. no lock0tite or aything else.

i "tuned" my super clutch with new bolts that i painstakingly trimmed until i was happy with the amount of slip. i can tune a other E50 clutches in a day, superclutch took a week... ugh...

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Scottee doesn't know. /

Ya nothing...

I pulled it all apart and the shoes all slid off the pins easy.

Made sure all my gearing was in alignment.

Only thing that could be is the clutch is just spinning in the bell and not centrifuging. So I backed the bolts off. Still nothing.

Also will disclose its a fancy cnc bell ( which shouldn't matter )

> Graham Motzing wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> You're getting no engagement? Are the shoes free to move out? Everything

> is tight on the shafts?

>

> Right out of the box it ought to work (edited)

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Yeah backing the bolts off isn't the way to loosen them up and they are similar but not quite the same as the 'superclutch'

What is the clearance between your bell and the shoes? These only have a mm or so of travel, if the CNC bell is too big that might be your problem

You need to loctite those bolts in place, they don't have any other locking feature

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Scottee doesn't know. /

Measure cnc bell vs stock bell.

Stock measured 84mm

Cnc measured 83.9x

Also think I found the issue. The bolts too short. With the bolts torqued &/or 3 turns from flush compressed the springs so the shoes had zero movement. Got some 25mm m6 button heads and I can actually pull the shoes away from the core.

Got too late so tomorrow will be the test.

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Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

If you have it apart you might want to take a pic of the hardware. I have 2 of them and they have different hardware. The critical dimension to spring preload is the shoulder height of the bolt. There's not much room in there to change things up.

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Scottee doesn't know. /

These are the bolt that came with the clutch.

Plus a washer.

I got some 25mm instead of 19mm.

And at least had grab to pull me up and down the block.

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Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

EH 📣FCC of the QCB /

I have a acquired a Garelli one. I can pull it apart and see what’s up with mine idk if it was an early prototype or one that was 4 sail. Just curious to see what it beholds….

Re: Dos Cycles/ Botanas 'ktm style' v1 clutch

Yeah that style is counting on it just bottoming out in the hole, not the best design. A shoulder bolt is better but there isn't a lot of room with how small everything is.

I guess get longer screws and maybe trim them to fit

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