Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

I'm still learning to navigate this excellent place to get information called the moped army lol..

So this morning I was reading about the e50 cutting reeds directly into the case and I couldn't help but wonder how much better or worse would it be to do that to a Tomos...

I did read someone overseas did it recently in July of 2019...

Has anyone else tried this or at least documented it...

I'm currently setting up my Tomos a55 with the 80cc metrakit now and although my cylinder and head is installed... The intake is going to look crappy... Plus it's piston ported and I hate the fact of losing my reeds...

So my question is you're such a nice flat spot on top of that engine where it looks like it would work and pull through the crankcase... I even think MLM makes an intake that's bigger than 20mm and I haven't checked yet... I have everything to do it and I guess I would cap off my cylinder with a gasket a piece of metal...

So I was curious about if it would be worth doing this or not and what everyone else's thoughts and comments were..

I'm pretty sure I would have enough clearance and room if I kept it toward the front of that hole over top of my crankcase...

Thank you and look forward to hearing any information or seeing any pictures....

Below is a picture of my current setup and I don't think my intake will work that way so I'm going to have to get a 1inch 45 degree copper plumbing elbow and add two more pieces of rubber and it's going to look like crap but it will clear after that....

IMG_20200101_213602.jpg

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Dirty30 Dillon /

I think you are over-complicating this a lot.

Case reeds are going to require much more fab than just making an intake for the Metra80.

You are stating that you "hate to lose the reeds" but honestly the Metra 80 is a GRUNTY cylinder that should have no problem moving just as it was designed. I would focus more on getting the motor built and fit to your frame, and less on how you can get reeds on the cylinder.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

If you're making your intake outta copper 45s and hose clamps maybe you're not quite ready for aluminum welding.

Your gonna mash those gears into dust anyways so why mash em faster with MORE torque?

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

The tomos a55 mlm intake should work with some fin hacking

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Yeah you're right... Plus

I don't know much about mopeds because it's sort of a new hobby for me ... I have only doing this off and on for a couple Summers... These darn mopeds just get you brainstorming a lot and they are taking up alot of space in my mind throughout the day when I should be concentrating on electrical work at my job...lol

I know they have like vforce 8 pedal reeds available and most racing bikes have reeds... But then again it's just mopeds... I thought how cool would it be to have an intake and carburetor setup that I don't have to change everyone I get a new kit.. only checking for worn reeds and air leaks every once in awhile ... It would save work and time...

I'll just block it out of my mind and focus on this build and then when I decide to go with another kit I'll end up buying another intake or fabricating one out of rubber hoses and hose clamps with plumbing parts because intakes are expensive...

I've watched videos on how to strokes work but I haven't read much about them and I think that's what I need to start doing then I probably could answer most of my own questions... Then I wouldn't have to get on here anymore and ask anyone else

..thank you

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Yeah maybe I'm not ready...

I'm sure no one on here with tell me or show me anyway...

I think you season people that have been doing this for a long time forget what it's like to start.... So all of your answers will be negative and non helping... I don't even know why I get on here and ask anything anymore....I'd like to see proof of someone else that's run one and mashed all their gears up into dust.... And since you said that and I know you know what you're talkin about... I should just give up anyway and throw the towel in now.... It's just a moped... Tomos engines are not hard to come by and if I did mash up the gears I'm sure people on here would like to see pictures of it and evidence so they don't make the same mistake... I got a hell of a good deal on the kit... I got a hell of a good deal on the bk100 pipe.... I have some new clutches , So I thought I'd give it a shot...

I guess I'm just supposed to do what everyone else is doing and play it safe and just blend in and ask questions about jetting and what pipe does what and what carb I should get so I can get the 40 miles per hour....

Yeah that's it, I have no idea why I would ever attempt to try to do something a little different so other people can learn from it... Maybe it will work out.... Who knows, but the fact is I won't post anything on here anymore and no one will ever know except for me...

Thanks again..

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Look dude,

Don't get all butt hurt.

If you wanna do it, do it.

That's what we do.

You have to be brave, you have to break shit and make bad decisions to learn.

So go ahead. Add a reed block to the cases. Lots of posts on how to convert to case reed. Search.

Then disassemble your cases and go for it. Do it with fucking jb weld.

It doesn't matter. None of this matters.

If you're not willing to try then you're not deserving of the improved machine.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Ok byeeee

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Just a navigation tip are you using flat view or threaded view? Click on Flat view if your not.

If you want to make it case inducted go for it. But I would get another motor to play with. I would build that motor as is. Either make a new intake or modify that one. But like Jbot said with any real torque your going to tear that trans to shreds. People who have hard hitting Tomos motors spend a lot of time getting their clutches and gears right. Read Jake Cain’s thread about Toby. Good Tomos information. People put big kits and case induct e50s caus they can take more abuse.

It would be cool to see you try it, but if your doing case induction get good at aluminum welding or using the aluminum sticks with a good torch. Welding on cases that have been soaked in oil for years in not easy. I just don’t recommend doing that out the gate with out a backup plan.

Here it is......

Toby Race Bike (edited)

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

He's just a sad boi right now.

We've all been sad moped boi at some point.

Just remember, it doesnt matter at all. If I had a dollar for every time someone told me stupid shit I'd have a lot of dollars. But FUCK IT IM BRAVE AND WILL DO WHAT I WANT AND MAKE SHIT EXPLODE OR RIP. Either one is fine by me.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Thank you very much...

I have read his a bunch of times actually.... But I've never seen a follow-up... I know he tore his crank up but he also had it HPI ignition and I believe that gives you more RPMs.... I think his fun so fast it's stripped the crank completely.... But that is the best Tomos bike forum I've ever read... He ended up milling down all of his gears and making everything lighter and dumping as much as he could and then he got a pull start from a chainsaw and added that to the side and he is a very very good welder.... I have got sticks and I have been messing around with them but I'm just starting out... I didn't realize the e50s can take more abuse and that's why people are harder on them.... I'm back in the day I understand the clutch was a very weak part of the engine but now we have these new clutches and they should be okay.... I think he blew his Conrad needle bearing up also and replaced it with a Weisco.... I did get one of those and installed it.... I'm not going to race my engine... But I think it would be great to have that torque there for when I need it but who am I kidding...there's not one other person with a moped who lives around me except for my wife and I bought it for her... All the rallies are hours away...I did have a blast last year at the Gettysburg rally that I went to and I met some really cool people.... I just don't understand why I have to hear so much crap just to get a straight answer... It almost makes me wish I never got bit by the moped bug because it's killing me.... I feel like I want to start a little club or something and just have fun.... And I'm hoping my kiddos when they get a little older they go out to the shed and start taking them apart and building their own stuff.... Maybe that'll keep him out of trouble.... I used to mess with BMX bikes tearing them apart when I was younger....back in the day they didn't have intake for every motor and they didn't have welding rods that you could use a torch and weld anything non magnetic... Thanks for the reply back...

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Dirty30 Dillon /

> J Dubbs Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I just don't understand why I have to hear so much crap just

> to get a straight answer...

Organizing your thoughts into a cohesive question with a question mark at the end will help people understand what you're seeking.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to case-reed induct a Tomos motor. No, I personally don't think it is worth the effort in this specific case. But it's your build, so if you wanna figure it out, then do so.

You're asking if it's worth it, and for thoughts and comments. Don't be upset if you receive thoughts and comments, and are told it may not be worth it or possible given your specific expertise.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

> JBOT Admin Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> But FUCK IT

> IM BRAVE AND WILL DO WHAT I WANT AND MAKE SHIT EXPLODE OR RIP. Either

> one is fine by me.

I've had as much fun blowing shit up and ripping, lol. Even though it means I fucked up royally there's something exciting about pulling that head off and seeing the carnage inside

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

With little whiny boi replies like that its no wonder nobody wants to help you.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Dirty30 Dillon /

Tomos R&D kinda already built this motor for you, although only the one.

IMG_20170829_041224.jpg
IMG_20170829_041212.jpg

Completely bonkers for Tomos, who have produced the same motor over and over.

Case inducted, kickstart, large transfer, subframe-style mount, whacky external ignition coil + pickup.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Wow that Tomos engine is really impressive...

IMG_20191201_230620.jpg

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Tomos R&D kinda already built this motor for you, although only the one.

>

> Completely bonkers for Tomos, who have produced the same motor over and

> over.

>

> Case inducted, kickstart, large transfer, subframe-style mount, whacky

Pretty sure that is the tomos “all motor” engine. They were prototyping a motor that could go on boats, bikes, farm equipment ect. And be very interchangeable so if your neglected pos boat threw a rod you could ride your moped over and slap the engine from that the on it.

> external ignition coil + pickup.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) /

> Daniel '' Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Tomos R&D kinda already built this motor for you, although only the

> one.

>

> >

>

> > Completely bonkers for Tomos, who have produced the same motor over

> and

>

> > over.

>

> >

>

> > Case inducted, kickstart, large transfer, subframe-style mount, whacky

>

> Pretty sure that is the tomos “all motor” engine. They were prototyping

> a motor that could go on boats, bikes, farm equipment ect. And be very

> interchangeable so if your neglected pos boat threw a rod you could ride

> your moped over and slap the engine from that the on it.

>

> > external ignition coil + pickup.

Ha, that reminds me of those homeowner tools marketed in the 60's 70's 80's i think? Shopmate? All i remember was there was a line of tools that were all powered by a common source...i think there was a lathe, a table saw, a drill press too?

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

> Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Ha, that reminds me of those homeowner tools marketed in the 60's 70's

> 80's i think? Shopmate? All i remember was there was a line of tools

> that were all powered by a common source...i think there was a lathe, a

> table saw, a drill press too?

All of which could likely be had using S&H Green Stamps . ;)

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Nice pile of mopeds. First thing u need to learn is how to quit typing so godamb much. It looks like a big ass blob of black on the page. Start there

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

I don't know why my last comment didn't show up...

And I was saying I learned a lot from yesterday's post... I'm going to complete this build on this engine and leave it as is.... And then I'm going to take another Tomos engine and I'm going to make it into a reed inducted case Tomos.. especially now that I know that the welding rods are not a gimmick and they do work I'm going to start there And keep

practicing... I enjoyed boring mycase for the metrakit...

Since my next engine will be reed inducted I will be able to change my kits anytime want without messing with an intake and I will save me time and money... I'm going to put this big hog of an engine on a nice top tank made from a heavy revival frame... My gearing will be limited but that's fine because it's not like I'm racing these mopeds... Believe me I'm sure with a gila kit and an HPI ignition you're going to get maximum RPMs and it will blow up and shred my gears ...Then who knows maybe I'll take that av7 I have and cut some reeds into that Moby.. . Or maybe I'll take that 65 KTM engine and put it on the moby.... Either way I really appreciate all the help....

I apologize that my writing looks like a Big blob of s***.... Sometimes I forget that there's people on here who are not interested in helping even though I was never asking for help... I was asking on the information about the performance on cutting reeds into your Tomos block ... Also you're right my thoughts are kind of all over the place.... But all that shows is that on motivated and I have a lot of ideas going through my head and I'm ready to make it happen.... Somebody commented and said that making a Tomos case Reed inducted will have more power and that's good news... Cheers to everyone... I'll get the engine mounted tonight... And tomorrow I'm going to start on the fitting of the pipe... Ripppin dicks y'all...

IMG_20200101_194649.jpg

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

I was kidding

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Case induction vs cylinder induction are like 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other. Pretty much all manufacturers went to case reeds for ease of production, not for any sort of performance benefits. The only gain on a tomos is that you wouldn’t be limited to puch/tomos kits. You could put a derbi kit on it or go full scooter, also bigger reeds would possible without lowering your motor mounts.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Damn I didn't know that.,.

But that's exactly what I was talking about trying to figure out if Reed induction was better on performance...

One person told me one time...

They said hey man if you set your piston Port up correctly... Then you're going to forget about those reeds... And maybe their correct... But I'm not a moped racer or anything... I enjoyed boring out that a55 case because it was one of the early model a35.... But I enjoy doing it and I'm addicted and I want to continue to build and do different things with these mopeds as a hobby where it doesn't cost me a fortune...

It's almost like getting high without spending a lot of money.... I've been trying to study Port timing and figure out these ratios... It's like I want to take all my old cylinders and start making them perform a lot better just to get a buzz...lol

I swear I didn't mean to start a bunch of crap but I know my thoughts are mumbled and jumbled... Maybe I should have said I want to use my Dremel on some more aluminum cases and come up with something that I will benefit from....

That's all... I know how Reed's work and it all makes sense when you think about it but I feel like piston porting is old school and maybe that's why those a3 are so fast

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

> J Dubbs Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Damn I didn't know that.,.

>

> But that's exactly what I was talking about trying to figure out if Reed

> induction was better on performance...

>

> One person told me one time...

>

> They said hey man if you set your piston Port up correctly... Then

> you're going to forget about those reeds... And maybe their correct...

> But I'm not a moped racer or anything... I enjoyed boring out that a55

> case because it was one of the early model a35.... But I enjoy doing it

> and I'm addicted and I want to continue to build and do different things

> with these mopeds as a hobby where it doesn't cost me a fortune...

>

> It's almost like getting high without spending a lot of money.... I've

> been trying to study Port timing and figure out these ratios... It's

> like I want to take all my old cylinders and start making them perform a

> lot better just to get a buzz...lol

>

> I swear I didn't mean to start a bunch of crap but I know my thoughts

> are mumbled and jumbled... Maybe I should have said I want to use my

> Dremel on some more aluminum cases and come up with something that I

> will benefit from....

>

> That's all... I know how Reed's work and it all makes sense when you

> think about it but I feel like piston porting is old school and maybe

> that's why those a3 are so fast

Okay so case inducted vs cylinder inducted reeds doesn’t matter to much. The idea of running case induction helps free up a lot of room in the cylinder to add more stuff like a third transfer. Piston ports are able to with stand higher rpms and will not suffer from reed flutter.

Personally I like the reed route because I’m super lazy and can get away with so much with a reed set up and still have good performance from it. Forget blow down , just forget it

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

I would argue that a well tuned reed setup should outperform a piston port over a broad range of rpm, since the intake timing can be more aggressive

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Always.

Even cyl reed.

Cut the cyl reed for 360 deg intake and if you don't enlarge/raise the exh much it will still have excellent low blowdown for a very wide power band.

> niklaus _ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I would argue that a well tuned reed setup should outperform a piston

> port over a broad range of rpm, since the intake timing can be more

> aggressive

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

I was in no way saying piston port vs reed valve are the same. It was cylinder reed induction vs case mounted reeds.

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

Get some scratch paper and write it down. Damn

Okay okay, how much for a paperweight? (edited)

Re: Diy reeds cut directly into Tomos case performance?

This thing sounds mean!!!

The next thing I'm doing now is fixing the exhaust... It's on their very tight and I don't have any weight on it but I'm just checking things and making sure I was running well...

I'm going to install the jammer after letting it soak...

I like my mikuni vm24 but it's weird there's not a lot of screws I can adjust for the air...

This is an older one off of a KTM... I guess mikuni had something going on with the pollution from what I can read...

Anyways that pipe has a very deep sound and no more ping ping sound...bk100....

I guess I'm going to leave it on the left side of the bike and then cut two slits and bend it up and weld into position...

Unless someone else knows any better recommendations?

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