Hey everybody, I was reading some literature by one of our more acclaimed members (Ken) and found some talk about running 5w 30 motor oil in place of ATF for the trans fluid.
I’ve had great success on my latest TCCD 70cc build. NOS 15 bing/ intake, tecno boss, blue clutch springs 3 turns out... and 17x45 gearing.
I’d just like to see some better low end than i’m getting now and was wondering what some good options are for a bit more slip than ATF.
If you really wanna get deep into your oil adventure, I would highly recommend looking up crazy Wayne’s snake oil or I think cornped had special sauce for a ktm clutch. Jbot (correct me if I’m wrong) was trying to make a fluid cooler set but had low success.
I was actually going around looking for all the special ingredients for the snake oil but all the stuff had To be special ordered and only in large amounts, so I lost interest in the adventure. Have fun!
CTF-R is probably the best. IME
Crazy Wayne's Snake oil is floating around $90 for 24 "batches" of it, and 160 for 48 batches. That's alotta oil.
Amazon has everything
Kinda want to try it
> Rocco Taco Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> If you really wanna get deep into your oil adventure, I would highly
> recommend looking up crazy Wayne’s snake oil or I think cornped had
> special sauce for a ktm clutch. Jbot (correct me if I’m wrong) was
> trying to make a fluid cooler set but had low success.
>
> I was actually going around looking for all the special ingredients for
> the snake oil but all the stuff had To be special ordered and only in
> large amounts, so I lost interest in the adventure. Have fun!
I've found excellent results with 15w-40 diesel oil in my FA50 transmision .
Better all around performance , but notably better at 'take off'
Note that my bike is virtually stock with a clutch that is original with thousands of miles and who knows what was run for oil before I got it . I do not baby the bike , but for a bit of putting through campgrounds and such .
yeah everyone has different preferences when it comes to trans fluid. I like to run the 15w40 rotella in my e50's and i like to run the 10w40 'valvoline motorcycle oil' in my ZA50.
you get a little more slip on the rotella
in my experience from least-most slip:
ATF type F
ATF dex/merc 3 (very slightly more slip, imperceptable on most setups)
0w20 mobil one (my wife's car uses it so i have it around)
10w14 valvoline motorcycle oil - now the difference between the 0w mobil one and the valvoline motorcycle is that the clutches in the 2 speed will 'stay locked' better with the valvoline, the 0w they will grab about the same but especially when its warm it will downshift sometimes when you dont want it to which gets annoying
10w40 car oil generic pennzoil- sometimes slips more sometimes slips less, i don't like using this vs the motorcycle oil because it changes a lot with temp. feels great when its cold but gets grabby hot.
15w40 rotella - i like this a lot in the e50, i also like that you can leave the springs a bit less pressure and get the same effect which means less wear and tear on the clutches
gear oil would go above this- 80w90 gear oil- personally i have avoided this because i've never needed it
I've been meaning to try hydraulic oil
> Wesley Ambrosini Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Crazy Wayne's Snake oil is floating around $90 for 24 "batches" of it,
> and 160 for 48 batches. That's alotta oil.
>
> Amazon has everything
>
> Kinda want to try it
>
> > Rocco Taco Wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > If you really wanna get deep into your oil adventure, I would highly
>
> > recommend looking up crazy Wayne’s snake oil or I think cornped had
>
> > special sauce for a ktm clutch. Jbot (correct me if I’m wrong) was
>
> > trying to make a fluid cooler set but had low success.
>
> >
>
> > I was actually going around looking for all the special ingredients
> for
>
> > the snake oil but all the stuff had To be special ordered and only in
>
> > large amounts, so I lost interest in the adventure. Have fun!
Yea but then you have a shitload leftover & what about if you don’t like it. If you mix a batch up, I’ll defintaly buy a small bottle lol
Crazy Wayne’s snake oil, it will fix all your moped problems. $20 bottle, ohh it also cures cancer and turns water into gold. (edited)
CTF-R has been great in my ZAs
> Mike Boyd Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> CTF-R has been great in my ZAs
hmm i might be tempted to try it. i've never really had a clutch that didn't work good with one of the above fluids that i was like 'you know what i need to do, custom order this crazy expensive shit'
> Rocco Taco Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Wesley Ambrosini Wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Crazy Wayne's Snake oil is floating around $90 for 24 "batches" of it,
>
> > and 160 for 48 batches. That's alotta oil.
>
> >
>
> > Amazon has everything
>
> >
>
> > Kinda want to try it
>
> >
>
> > > Rocco Taco Wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
>
> > > If you really wanna get deep into your oil adventure, I would highly
>
> >
>
> > > recommend looking up crazy Wayne’s snake oil or I think cornped had
>
> >
>
> > > special sauce for a ktm clutch. Jbot (correct me if I’m wrong) was
>
> >
>
> > > trying to make a fluid cooler set but had low success.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I was actually going around looking for all the special ingredients
>
> > for
>
> >
>
> > > the snake oil but all the stuff had To be special ordered and only
> in
>
> >
>
> > > large amounts, so I lost interest in the adventure. Have fun!
>
> Yea but then you have a shitload leftover & what about if you don’t like
> it. If you mix a batch up, I’ll defintaly buy a small bottle lol
>
> Crazy Wayne’s snake oil, it will fix all your moped problems. $20
> bottle, ohh it also cures cancer and turns water into gold.
I just might do that.
( what am I doing with my life)
I got it down to 8 batches of approx. 18oz for $39 on Amazon
Impulse bought 2 bottles with a Dos order like a year or two ago... i have a bad moped habit.
> Graham Motzing Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Mike Boyd Wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > CTF-R has been great in my ZAs
>
> hmm i might be tempted to try it. i've never really had a clutch that
> didn't work good with one of the above fluids that i was like 'you know
> what i need to do, custom order this crazy expensive shit'
> Mike Boyd Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Impulse bought 2 bottles with a Dos order like a year or two ago... i
> have a bad moped habit.
>
At least your not slamming it yet.
I second the 15w40 Rotella^^^, I really like it in my e50 and tomos too. And because I have it, I put it in my derbi gearboxes as well
Is it really the case that slip/lubricity/viscosity are the only variables to all of the above? I was of the impression that some fluids were more/less compatible with the clutch pad material itself. Don't some formulations, never intended for wet clutch use, deteriorate the pads chemically?
I’ve been using air compressor oil. It’s nd30 and like 10 bucks a gallon. Shit rips.
Damn I should have emailed Blake. I was running ND 30 for years and recently switched over to Royal Purple 30w. I am not a fan. The cheep Auto-zone ND30 seemed to work way better. Idk if it was just luck but ALL of my E50s started having clutch trouble when I switched over. So I got on Amazon and ordered this
I order way toooooooo much. I can change the oil in 22 1/2 e50s. I was reading on the dirt bike forums that people with Rekluse clutches were having good results with this oil. They were saying it centrifugal wet clutches should have a JASO MA additive? Ya I never searched what that was. I saw it mentioned again with information about KTM50 clutches too. However lots of people also said Rotella T worked well also. It all comes down to what your doing to the bike and what you feel like spending on oil.
> Mike Boyd Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Impulse bought 2 bottles with a Dos order like a year or two ago... i
> have a bad moped habit.
>
> > Graham Motzing Wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > Mike Boyd Wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
>
> > > CTF-R has been great in my ZAs
>
> >
>
> > hmm i might be tempted to try it. i've never really had a clutch that
>
> > didn't work good with one of the above fluids that i was like 'you
> know
>
> > what i need to do, custom order this crazy expensive shit'
I'll second the Valvoline 10-40 moto oil for ZA50 application. It worked really well in E50's as well. Would def try Rotella given it's more readily available and in bulk
> Brad William Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Is it really the case that slip/lubricity/viscosity are the only
> variables to all of the above? I was of the impression that some fluids
> were more/less compatible with the clutch pad material itself. Don't
> some formulations, never intended for wet clutch use, deteriorate the
> pads chemically?
so this is pretty complicated because there are a number of different materials/chemicals at play. i've never experienced any chemical reaction problems from running different oils, but the rubber clutch in a Garelli NOI is the big one.
for the most part all of these oils are pretty chemically inert with the clutch and seal materials in the transmission. The a35 cork could be another one that would be harmed by detergent or solvents in the oil, but those probably won't live long enough to need it.
interesting about the rotella in the A35's, i've always ran those with ATF because i usually go to asbestos linings on the more powerful ones, but i might check that out. i've generally found the oil not to make much difference in the tomos motors shifting.
Yeah i’ve always been perfectly happy with how my tomos clutches grab,
Sounds like I should give the Rotella 15w 40 a try sometime this weekend if I can find it around here.
Anyone else try 5w 30? I live in New England where the weather is anywhere from a couple degrees out to a hundred depending on time of year.
the oil in your transmission goes from whatever temp it is outside to probably 180-250 degrees when the engine is running, so the air temp swing really doesn't make much difference compared to the difference between hot/cold running.
> Graham Motzing Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Brad William Wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Is it really the case that slip/lubricity/viscosity are the only
>
> > variables to all of the above? I was of the impression that some
> fluids
>
> > were more/less compatible with the clutch pad material itself. Don't
>
> > some formulations, never intended for wet clutch use, deteriorate the
>
> > pads chemically?
>
> so this is pretty complicated because there are a number of different
> materials/chemicals at play. i've never experienced any chemical
> reaction problems from running different oils, but the rubber clutch in
> a Garelli NOI is the big one.
>
> for the most part all of these oils are pretty chemically inert with the
> clutch and seal materials in the transmission. The a35 cork could be
> another one that would be harmed by detergent or solvents in the oil,
> but those probably won't live long enough to need it.
>
> interesting about the rotella in the A35's, i've always ran those with
> ATF because i usually go to asbestos linings on the more powerful ones,
> but i might check that out. i've generally found the oil not to make
> much difference in the tomos motors shifting.
You're right, the spring in 2nd gear is what controls the upshift for the most part..but i have noticed a little bit better slip characteristics with oil instead of ATF, especially when the engine is heat soaked.
The real reason I use atf though is to help preserve the soft countershaft gears, and also help quiet the gear whine a little.
My bike makes a good bit of power, and I use a jammer clutch as well.
I notice less metal flake in my oil changes with actual oil.
When I used to use atf, I noticed burrs forming on the countershaft gear teeth and lots of metal flake.
True
So 5W30 Motor oil really does kick ATFs Buttox... Way better pull especially up hills, If only the temperature would stop fluctuating during this fall season so I could jet this thing correctly hahaha! 4 stroking while it’s 65 degrees out now running a tiny bit lean while it’s 40 out LOL!
^ tools of the trade right there, haha.
i started using a tupperware container years ago as a mini drain pan, that helps too. for clutch spring adjustment i tip the whole bike on its side so i don't have to drain the oil.
> Graham Motzing Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> ^ tools of the trade right there, haha.
>
> i started using a tupperware container years ago as a mini drain pan,
> that helps too. for clutch spring adjustment i tip the whole bike on
> its side so i don't have to drain the oil.
still new gaskets and gasket goo, i usually wait for that to set before trying again, makes it a long old process
Tools of the trade for sure hahaha!
That clutch cover gasket was something i’ve been meaning to change as i’ve reused it’s like 4-5 times now and it started getting a slight drip.
So i’ve got Blue springs, 2 shoe clutch at max tension and 5w30. Next time I find myself being an advance auto zombie i’ll pick up a quart of Rotella 15w40 and see how it goes.
> Graham Motzing Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>. for clutch spring adjustment i tip the whole bike on
> its side so i don't have to drain the oil.
damnit that's a good idea.
> ken gilbert Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Graham Motzing Wrote:
>
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> >. for clutch spring adjustment i tip the whole bike on
>
> > its side so i don't have to drain the oil.
>
> damnit that's a good idea.
yeah i cant remember where i picked that up but i saw someone literally do it at a gas stop at a rally in like two minutes.
I usually cut my own from a thicker karropak gasket material, then pre-soak the gasket in oil, that way you can pop it on and off without messing it up. never put any goo on it.
Best trick in clutch tuning. I flipped the clutch on a ZA once, but I had to put tape over the vent hole so it did not leak out. Dude was like I want to do it but don’t want to drain the oil....and yada yada yada. Popped some tape, used an impact to get everything off, flipped the clutches and torqued the nuts to specs in like 5 mins.
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