Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Continuing my 78 Maxi improvements.

Considering a Treats 70 cc kit.

Which is best for overall torque and reliability? Not trying for top speed. Looking for hill climbing power and acceleration. My Puch is a ZA50 2 Speed. Would like to stick with 15mm Bing Carb. Have a PROMA circuit performance pipe on the way based on reading that it was a good low to mid end pipe.

Treats has two kits one is listed as TCCD? Not sure what the difference is?

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Overpriced Parts /

Some type of reed kit because stock crank has really small oil channels to get mix into the big end of the rod bearing,

Reed kits take a big jet (some times 10 sizes bigger then piston port kits) so better concentrated mix gets into the crank bottom so something like treats reed, polini, Athena reed kit,

gear high 21x36 at least and time low 14-14.5 if points ignition

2nd gear flip is a must too,

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Athena ajh 70cc great lining on them :)

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Overpriced Parts Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Some type of reed kit because stock crank has really small oil channels

> to get mix into the big end of the rod bearing,

>

> Reed kits take a big jet (some times 10 sizes bigger then piston port

> kits) so better concentrated mix gets into the crank bottom so

> something like treats reed, polini, Athena reed kit,

>

> gear high 21x36 at least and time low 14-14.5 if points ignition

>

> 2nd gear flip is a must too,

Im assuming a reed kit means a different carb?

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Lee Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Overpriced Parts Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Some type of reed kit because stock crank has really small oil

> channels

>

> > to get mix into the big end of the rod bearing,

>

> >

>

> > Reed kits take a big jet (some times 10 sizes bigger then piston port

>

> > kits) so better concentrated mix gets into the crank bottom so

>

> > something like treats reed, polini, Athena reed kit,

>

> >

>

> > gear high 21x36 at least and time low 14-14.5 if points ignition

>

> >

>

> > 2nd gear flip is a must too,

>

> Im assuming a reed kit means a different carb?

Not always

https://www.puchshop.de/puch-engine-parts/puch-cylinder-parts/athena-ajh-bing-kit-70cc-45mm.html

Polini cylinder for Puch comes with a manifold for bing too

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Adam Smith Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Lee Snover Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > > Overpriced Parts Wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> >

>

> > > Some type of reed kit because stock crank has really small oil

>

> > channels

>

> >

>

> > > to get mix into the big end of the rod bearing,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Reed kits take a big jet (some times 10 sizes bigger then piston

> port

>

> >

>

> > > kits) so better concentrated mix gets into the crank bottom so

>

> >

>

> > > something like treats reed, polini, Athena reed kit,

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > gear high 21x36 at least and time low 14-14.5 if points ignition

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > 2nd gear flip is a must too,

>

> >

>

> > Im assuming a reed kit means a different carb?

>

> Not always

>

> https://www.puchshop.de/puch-engine-parts/puch-cylinder-parts/athena-ajh-bing-kit-70cc-45mm.html

>

> Polini cylinder for Puch comes with a manifold for bing too

Is there a big penalty for using the Bing? I just got a brand new Bing 15. Is this kit available in the US? Can I buy sans Bing carb, assuming it's a stock Bing 15? What kind of Jet sizes does this setup require?

I was hoping for something simpler that would use my stock intake and larger Bing carb.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Well you want a piston port kit,

Treatland overnin the USA with have them

Also mopeddivion. Google them.

Get a good brand for reliability. Athena do make a PP kit too

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Adam Smith Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.treatland.tv/SearchResults.asp?Search=Athena+Puch+

Thanks, I've done those searches. LOL. Looks like the kits for Bing are out of stock. There are a lot of options. 38mm vs 45mm reeds, different intakes, etc.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Athena or Polini? What is the consensus for torque and acceleration and ease of maintenance? Help a green been out.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Overpriced Parts /

> Lee Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Athena or Polini? What is the consensus for torque and acceleration

> and ease of maintenance? Help a green been out.

Athena kit though I went with 64cc Polini kit first but i’ve been tuning 2 cycle singles dirt/Enduro bikes, yam doubles and kaw triple cylinder street bikes for 40 some years

You’re gonna have to Dremel some metal away so the reed cage fits correctly on large reed Athena, nothing fits and is a complete Bolt on ever on aftermarket Moped parts so experiment, learn, and enjoy,

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

That's fine. I'm used to RC Model engines, and I have had some bigger than my moped engines. In fact, I was half tempted to try and retrofit a 100cc Twin RC 2 Stroke onto the Moped. The carbs on the models are much simpler to tune, but we mostly run them 80 to 100%.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Just have a look at the polini's porting it's different to anything else for puch and will give you lots of torque because of its great design, an athena will just have a good quality nicasil bore.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Overpriced Parts /

> Adam Smith Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Just have a look at the polini's porting it's different to anything else

> for puch and will give you lots of torque because of its great design,

> an athena will just have a good quality nicasil bore.

As well as gas porting, so a lot of mix gets into the bottom end with proper jetting, (87 to 92 size jet with 217 atomizer) on 15mm bing ,

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

polini kit with the supplied reeds, intake, and a 14 or 15 bing is a great setup.

tecno estoril pipe if you don't mind the size and pedal complication, proma circuit, even a boss or proma GP is pretty ok.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> polini kit with the supplied reeds, intake, and a 14 or 15 bing is a

> great setup.

>

> tecno estoril pipe if you don't mind the size and pedal complication,

> proma circuit, even a boss or proma GP is pretty ok.

I have a Promo Circuit on the way. May go with the Treats 70cc reed kit for costs and simplicity.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

cost/simplicity it doesn't really pan out.

by the time you buy a new carb and intake and reeds you are about even with a polini, and the polini has much better performance out of the box using the bing carb. the polini/14 bing is a 45+ mph setup all day and the only thing you have to buy is a 230 dollar kit

now, if you want to plunk down the extra cash and do the VM20 on the treats reed, that combo is a winner, but it still wont make the power of the polini all things being equal until you do some porting.

polinis with bings on conservative points timing with the torquey pipes like i mentioned are very reliable and easy to tune. don't believe the hype. The reputation for them blowing up is people that don't know how to build/tune and people pushing the envelope with big pipes.

plus due to the polini piston design you can keep the stock head saving another 50 bucks (but they run much cooler, faster and more reliable with THIS ONE )(edited)

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> cost/simplicity it doesn't really pan out.

>

> by the time you buy a new carb and intake and reeds you are about even

> with a polini, and the polini has much better performance out of the box

> using the bing carb. the polini/14 bing is a 45+ mph setup all day and

> the only thing you have to buy is a 230 dollar kit

>

> now, if you want to plunk down the extra cash and do the VM20 on the

> treats reed, that combo is a winner, but it still wont make the power of

> the polini all things being equal until you do some porting.

>

> polinis with bings on conservative points timing with the torquey pipes

> like i mentioned are very reliable and easy to tune. don't believe the

> hype. The reputation for them blowing up is people that don't know how

> to build/tune and people pushing the envelope with big pipes.

>

> plus due to the polini piston design you can keep the stock head saving

> another 50 bucks (but they run much cooler, faster and more reliable

> with THIS ONE )

Thank you for the advice!

I have to find an intake that will work with my ZA50 and the bing if I go that route.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Overpriced Parts /

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> cost/simplicity it doesn't really pan out.

>

> by the time you buy a new carb and intake and reeds you are about even

> with a polini, and the polini has much better performance out of the box

> using the bing carb. the polini/14 bing is a 45+ mph setup all day and

> the only thing you have to buy is a 230 dollar kit

>

> now, if you want to plunk down the extra cash and do the VM20 on the

> treats reed, that combo is a winner, but it still wont make the power of

> the polini all things being equal until you do some porting.

>

> polinis with bings on conservative points timing with the torquey pipes

> like i mentioned are very reliable and easy to tune. don't believe the

> hype. The reputation for them blowing up is people that don't know how

> to build/tune and people pushing the envelope with big pipes.

>

> plus due to the polini piston design you can keep the stock head saving

> another 50 bucks (but they run much cooler, faster and more reliable

> with THIS ONE )

Kit is only 215$ plus 18% off treats sale and free shipping to 6th

My first polini kit was like 260$ plus shipping back in the day bought from Chris at Mopedwarehouse,

I bought it over the phone, he next day the large Jets over the phone order and help me tune it over the phone, (because it took such a large jet I was stumped at first)

They take a 86-90 size jet with 15mm bing, 217 atomizer when I was used to 76-80 size for piston port kits and it took a richer needle clip setting too

Best money I ever spent! The kit still runs today, of course I changed the ring then put a new piston and ring in, it’s got somewhere around 15-17k mi on it

I have another polini around same time from steve’s moped that has hi mi on it and still runs good with ring and piston maintenance too,

At one time I had 6 polini bikes (now only 4) that even with mild tune and mild pipe (estoril pipe) go 55-60 mph, some had 4 petal and phbg carbs but 2 have 15mm bings and go over 55mph and climb hills great,

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Overpriced Parts Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Graham Motzing Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > cost/simplicity it doesn't really pan out.

>

> >

>

> > by the time you buy a new carb and intake and reeds you are about even

>

> > with a polini, and the polini has much better performance out of the

> box

>

> > using the bing carb. the polini/14 bing is a 45+ mph setup all day

> and

>

> > the only thing you have to buy is a 230 dollar kit

>

> >

>

> > now, if you want to plunk down the extra cash and do the VM20 on the

>

> > treats reed, that combo is a winner, but it still wont make the power

> of

>

> > the polini all things being equal until you do some porting.

>

> >

>

> > polinis with bings on conservative points timing with the torquey

> pipes

>

> > like i mentioned are very reliable and easy to tune. don't believe the

>

> > hype. The reputation for them blowing up is people that don't know

> how

>

> > to build/tune and people pushing the envelope with big pipes.

>

> >

>

> > plus due to the polini piston design you can keep the stock head

> saving

>

> > another 50 bucks (but they run much cooler, faster and more reliable

>

> > with THIS ONE )

>

> Kit is only 215$ plus 18% off treats sale and free shipping to 6th

>

> My first polini kit was like 260$ plus shipping back in the day bought

> from Chris at Mopedwarehouse,

>

> I bought it over the phone, he next day the large Jets over the phone

> order and help me tune it over the phone, (because it took such a large

> jet I was stumped at first)

>

> They take a 86-90 size jet with 15mm bing, 217 atomizer when I was used

> to 76-80 size for piston port kits and it took a richer needle clip

> setting too

>

> Best money I ever spent! The kit still runs today, of course I changed

> the ring then put a new piston and ring in, it’s got somewhere around

> 15-17k mi on it

>

> I have another polini around same time from steve’s moped that has hi mi

> on it and still runs good with ring and piston maintenance too,

>

> At one time I had 6 polini bikes (now only 4) that even with mild tune

> and mild pipe (estoril pipe) go 55-60 mph, some had 4 petal and phbg

> carbs but 2 have 15mm bings and go over 55mph and climb hills great,

OK, what size range of jets should I get for the 15 Bing? Stock 1.5hp Puch head is OK?

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

OK, what size range of jets should I get for the 15 Bing? Stock 1.5hp

Is 90 the biggest I would potentially need?

Puch head is OK?

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

OK, after MUCH debate, I pulled the trigger on the Polini kit with a large selection of jets, while the sale was going at treats. Now I have to find or make an intake that will work with my ZA50. Guess it's time to use my new to be found welding and fabrication skillz. LOL. That's part of the fun. This will be my motivation for my spare ZA50 rebuild over the winter. Hoping I did not bite off more than I can chew.

Thank you all for your advice!

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Lee Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> OK, after MUCH debate, I pulled the trigger on the Polini kit with a

> large selection of jets, while the sale was going at treats. Now I

> have to find or make an intake that will work with my ZA50. Guess it's

> time to use my new to be found welding and fabrication skillz. LOL.

> That's part of the fun. This will be my motivation for my spare ZA50

> rebuild over the winter. Hoping I did not bite off more than I can

> chew.

>

> Thank you all for your advice!

Nice! can't wait to see this za50 ripper!

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Adam Smith Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Lee Snover Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > OK, after MUCH debate, I pulled the trigger on the Polini kit with a

>

> > large selection of jets, while the sale was going at treats. Now I

>

> > have to find or make an intake that will work with my ZA50. Guess

> it's

>

> > time to use my new to be found welding and fabrication skillz. LOL.

>

> > That's part of the fun. This will be my motivation for my spare ZA50

>

> > rebuild over the winter. Hoping I did not bite off more than I can

>

> > chew.

>

> >

>

> > Thank you all for your advice!

>

> Nice! can't wait to see this za50 ripper!

Does anyone have a Pic of a ZA50/Bing 15 with Polini setup? Looking for an existing intake that would work, or ideas for how to fabricate one. Is the length of the tube between the reed and the carb critical, or can that be extended? Most of the intakes I'm seeing are short, but I've seen some long ones.

If I can design an intake that could be fabricated in a hight temp plastic, I'm thinking I might be able to get some made using 3D printing. Anyone else have a need for this or tried it?

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Lee Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> OK, what size range of jets should I get for the 15 Bing? Stock 1.5hp

> Puch head is OK?

> > Overpriced Parts Wrote:

> > They take a 86-90 size jet with 15mm bing, 217 atomizer when I was

> used

>

> > to 76-80 size for piston port kits and it took a richer needle clip

>

> > setting too

The power output and jetting on the polini is dependant on the pipe. If you are running a circuit pipe you might be as low as an 80 but if you are running a higher performance pipe i have seen them go as high as 108. 82 comes in the 15 bing, i would get 84, 86, 88, 90, 92, and 94. Start with the 94 and if that is lean start looking hard for an air leak.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

i dunno if i have any pics but my last za/bing setup had a 3/8" thick spacer and some grinding done to the case hump.

currently i'm running a spigot mount PHBG 19 with a custom intake fabbed from a 1" harley handlebar bend.

if you run a 1/2" thick spacer it clears with the stock intake which is nice because it tucks the carb in nearly the stock mounting location, sidecovers and everything fit. If you fab your own intake you can use 7/8" handlebar tubing and the bing will clamp right on there, but it probably wont be as tidy of a mounting location.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> i dunno if i have any pics but my last za/bing setup had a 3/8" thick

> spacer and some grinding done to the case hump.

>

> currently i'm running a spigot mount PHBG 19 with a custom intake fabbed

> from a 1" harley handlebar bend.

>

> if you run a 1/2" thick spacer it clears with the stock intake which is

> nice because it tucks the carb in nearly the stock mounting location,

> sidecovers and everything fit. If you fab your own intake you can use

> 7/8" handlebar tubing and the bing will clamp right on there, but it

> probably wont be as tidy of a mounting location.

OK, great. With a little luck, I think I can fabricate a spacer.

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Get yourself some gasket paper 0.5mm or so,

Draw up a bunch of spare gaskets from the ones that arrive with your kit. If money if an restricting factor.

Also you might want I to find some gasket sealant and sealant it all then Hopefully you'll only need to do it once properly

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

Overpriced Parts /

Spacer for za50

https://www.treatland.tv/MLM-puch-polini-intake-riser-v2-p/mlm-polini-intake-riser-754.htm

D5E08765-0560-4C46-B448-77E76DC27225.jpeg

So you know great deal of case matching has to be ground into the case with dremel/die grinder for polini especially the upper boost it’s best to done with the engine disassemble bare cases because those aluminum filings will get into everything/crank bearings rod bearings crank bottom end,

27755067-F770-40B4-A226-0CEAD704CD61.jpeg
03500A88-E573-4DEB-8EA1-827E08439A28.jpeg

Some don’t disassemble the engine and use playdoe and rags shoved into crankcase and flush the whole thing out with gas oil mixture and blow everything out,

I’ve done it that way more then a few times but then when I was done I ran a old stock cylinder/top end for a minute or so to hear for any bearing noise and so no flakes of aluminum got to the new polini kit,

Other kits don’t require boost ports but still need matching done to case, some kits have too big of transfers that metal has to be added to case to seal but even with this large deep match on my engine a polini kit seals fine

Some za50s have a pc of metal tab at bottom of case that has to be removed for most any kit to fit also,

Re: Best 70 cc kit for torque and reliability

> Overpriced Parts Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Spacer for za50

>

> https://www.treatland.tv/MLM-puch-polini-intake-riser-v2-p/mlm-polini-intake-riser-754.htm

>

> So you know great deal of case matching has to be ground into the case

> e with dremel/die grinder for polini especially the upper boost it’s

> best to done with the engine disassemble bare cases because those

> aluminum filings will get into everything/crank bearings rod bearings

> crank bottom end,

>

> Some don’t disassemble the engine and use playdoe and rags shoved into

> crankcase and flush the whole thing out with gas oil mixture and blow

> everything out,

>

> I’ve done it that way more then a few times but then when I was done I

> ran a old stock cylinder/top end for a minute or so to hear for any

> bearing noise and so no flakes of aluminum got to the new polini kit,

>

> Other kits don’t require boost ports but still need matching done to

> case, some kits have too big of transfers that metal has to be added to

> case to seal but even with this large deep match on my engine a polini

> kit seals fine

>

> Some za50s have a pc of metal tab at bottom of case that has to be

> removed for most any kit to fit also,

Thanks. This HAS to be done? Or this is optional? I have a spare ZA50 that I am planning to do a full rebuild on, but I didn't realize this kind of work was necessary for the Polini kit. Otherwise, I would have gone with the treats 70 cc kit. I was hoping to use this with my current motor while doing the rebuild on the other, then moving the kit to the rebuilt motor. I don't want to hack up the original motor.

I'm good with a dremel if I have to go through this. Is there a video explaining the process in more detail?

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