E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Guys and Gals:

Live on a steep hill and playing with me "new" ZA50 78 Sport MKII. I'm not particularly interested in top end speed, but I'd like to investigate the best way to get some more low end torque/power. This is the same model/bike I had at 15 years old new in 1978 and I weighed about 135 wet back then. I'm now 200, and surprisingly, this 41 year old motor feels pretty much the same as when I rode one way back then.

Is there any simple mods, or rebuild options that would get me to a reliable 20+ mph heading up a steep hill? With the 2 speed, It hits 15 and stays in first till I crest the hill. Considering the grade, this isn't bad, but if I could improve on this with some mods, that would be fabulous.

My thought was the 2 speed was the way to go with hills, but I'm open to building an E50 if it would be simpler and get me the same results.

If this is a repeat topic, forgive the dupe, and point me to some threads that might answer this question, assuming there is a good answer.

Also, is there anyplace that lists the history of Puch models and options up to their discontinuance? Are the Magnums so pricey just because they look more like a regular motorcycle, or do they have a superior drive train? Appreciate the patience with the "newby" questions.

JF

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Magnums ride nice, but yeah. The looks command a premium.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

> Layton Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Also, is there anyplace that lists the history of Puch models and

> options up to their discontinuance? Are the Magnums so pricey just

> because they look more like a regular motorcycle, or do they have a

> superior drive train? Appreciate the patience with the "newby"

> questions.

>

> JF

Myrons has great information on all the Puch models offered every year: http://www.myronsmopeds.com/category/parts/puch-parts/

Magnums have the same drivetrain as any other ZA50 Puch, they're more expensive because they look cooler. They also have slightly better suspensions and much better swingarms. I've never touched a ZA50 so I can't offer too much help on your performance question. Good luck!

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Keep the Weight down would be a cheap option.

Everyone likes mag rims but spokes are lighter and sicker.

A kitted e50 with all the big stuff like carb and exhaust with a stock flywheel & transmission/clutch with lighten/tuned parts will definitely make hilling climing not even a word.

When you start blasting hills especially on long rides you need to keep an eye on your temps and keep your timing conservative. (edited)

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Thanks. I have a set of spoked wheels I could clean up, but I do like the Mags. Treat has a "special" with 70cc head and all the bits with a piston and lower compression head. Is this enough to do a good reliable conversion, or do I have to go all the way and mess with the jetting, intake and exhaust as well? If I'm just trying to keep it "mild", is the head and cylinder upgrade sufficient by itself?

I used to be 225, so I have dropped some weight. Aiming for 175. ;-)

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

> Layton Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks. I have a set of spoked wheels I could clean up, but I do like

> the Mags. Treat has a "special" with 70cc head and all the bits with a

> piston and lower compression head. Is this enough to do a good

> reliable conversion, or do I have to go all the way and mess with the

> jetting, intake and exhaust as well? If I'm just trying to keep it

> "mild", is the head and cylinder upgrade sufficient by itself?

If you're increasing the displacement/power of the engine you're going to have to increase the jetting. It won't run right/at all with the stock jetting setup. Also the stock exhaust is restricted so putting a kit on it and keeping the stock exhaust is almost a moot point.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

OK, was hoping that was not the case. So realistically I'm going to be into this for 500 or so, unless I can find some of the bits used. Treat has a "stock looking" more free flow pipe, would that be sufficient? I don't want to change the looks of the bike or have to change pedals for clearance.

What size jets should I buy to have on hand for dialing it in? Want to have a set that covers the basis so I'm not reordering. Where's the best place to start?

Appreciate the advice!

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Jet sizes are going to vary based everything..70cc or 50cc?

Most importantly what carb you are going to use, ur gonna want something bigger than a 12mm bing to get any power.

Yeah, gotta re-jet accordingly even for small changes like a more open air filter...

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

> Layton Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> OK, was hoping that was not the case. So realistically I'm going to be

> into this for 500 or so, unless I can find some of the bits used.

> Treat has a "stock looking" more free flow pipe, would that be

> sufficient? I don't want to change the looks of the bike or have to

> change pedals for clearance.

https://www.treatland.tv/puch-treat-kit-party-70cc-TCCD-kit-CUSTOM-head-p/puch-kit-party-tccd.htm

https://www.treatland.tv/puch-estoril-performance-pipe-p/puch-estoril-w-internal-baffle.htm

https://www.treatland.tv/range-of-5-bing-jets-pick-a-size-p/bing-jet-range-5pk.htm

Your pedals will clear every pipe, anyone complaining about pedal clearance doesn't have a Magnum; Magnums have longer pedal shafts. This is the set up I would run, only clocking in at $250 (and if you're patient you can wait until the next treats sale and get it for ~20% off so it'd only be $200 or so)

Check the wiki for the Puch tuning excel spreadsheet and use that to get an idea for what your jetting should be.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

> Aaron Blair Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Jet sizes are going to vary based everything..70cc or 50cc?

>

> Most importantly what carb you are going to use, ur gonna want something

> bigger than a 12mm bing to get any power.

>

> Yeah, gotta re-jet accordingly even for small changes like a more open

> air filter...

Yeah this is a good point, I guess I assumed he had a 14 bing. You can get a 14mm intake off treats for like $20, and 14 bings are cheap as hell used.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

I don't have a Magnum, have a Maxi Sport MKII.

That's a hideous looking pipe. LOL. I really would like something that looks stock if it will work. The combo above was exactly what I was considering.

Would this one be sufficient?

https://www.treatland.tv/puch-maxi-chrome-stock-pipe-tecno-p/puch-maxi-stock-pipe-28mm.htm

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Overpriced Parts /

> Layton Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I don't have a Magnum, have a Maxi Sport MKII.

>

> That's a hideous looking pipe. LOL. I really would like something

> that looks stock if it will work. The combo above was exactly what I

> was considering.

>

> Would this one be sufficient?

>

> https://www.treatland.tv/puch-maxi-chrome-stock-pipe-tecno-p/puch-maxi-stock-pipe-28mm.htm

No that stock looking pipe doesn’t have a expansion chamber which is needed for a 2 cycle engine to have supercharge effect which is key to making power,

That hideous pipe looking pipe is the best pipe for a stock crank za50 or a e50 but it’s a bit hard to put on a maxi, but I have no problem, I just bend the pedal crank a bit,

I several bikes with these pipes

68141E8B-8A31-4F66-82D5-0C99FA0015F6.jpeg

A techno circuit is the next best thing for a za50 or a e50 too but you won’t like the looks of that pipe either but bolts right on with no pedal issues

FD355A1A-DE7B-4918-ADEC-B527F835160D.jpeg

Make the choice either looks and performance

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Well, top one doesn't look as bad as I thought it would.

Bottom one looks like the engine is being attacked by a mechanical snail. ;-)

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Overpriced Parts /

> Layton Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Well, top one doesn't look as bad as I thought it would.

>

> Bottom one looks like the engine is being attacked by a mechanical

> snail. ;-)

That snail pipe with a cheep 70cc kit and 14mm bing went 48mph on the flat with my 200 lb and went uphills without pedaling

It doesn’t make a lot of heat by your a leg that a stock pipe generates plus its 1/2 the wt of a stock pipe

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

lots of bad advice here... well not so much bad advice but i think most folks are missing the point.

First things first, make sure the bike is tuned up and running perfecto, stuff like brakes, chain, wheel bearings. The sport mk2 has loose wheel bearings that need to be cleaned, greased and adjusted on a regular basis. If the bike is original new tires, tubes and probably a chain are a must.

Second, and this one is pretty important, the 'shift pucks' or 'shift dampers' need to be replaced if they haven't been done already, if you don't replace them your engine will get destroyed with a quickness.

Third, while you're in there doing the shift pucks, flip your second gear clutch around and put it in backwards, that delays the second gear shift point and gives you better acceleration. Refill it with the proper level of 10w40 motorcycle oil and it will shift nice and smooth.

Fourth, ok now you can start doing stuff to give it 'more power.' The first and easiest thing to do is remove the head gasket if there is one. That should require no other changes but you will want to make sure your timing is spot on perfecto.

While you are in there its not a bad idea to decarbon the piston, exhaust, and replace all those gaskets (except the head gasket, just leave it out, make sure its clean.

The sport mk2 is already the fastest stock puch made so its got the 'good' exhaust. You could definitely upgrade to that tecno stock pipe and you'll probably get a little boost on top end but not much acceleration improvement. Every single one of those dykes ring sport mk2 pistons i've ever gotten (like four now?) have all been really badly carbon'd up so thats definitely something to check.

Most people around here are all about that top speed and lots of mods but you can definitely make a noticeable improvement in torque and around town driving with just the stuff i listed here and keep it as reliable as stock (maybe more reliable).

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Thanks for the advice. The previous owner was running it regularly, and I've been running it around for a few days with no odd sounds, so pucks are currently OK. I'm trying to get ahold of him to see if he changed recently. If I can't confirm, or if he didn't, which pucks are best for general use, and is it a job a mediocre mechanic can handle or should I find someone with experience? If he did change them, what is the service interval?

THe MKII is supposed to be High Compression and have no gasket, but I'll have to pull it apart to confirm.

Have new tires and tubes coming today, so my plan is to pull the wheels and chains for a good clean up and lube. THe tires are rough. New fork lock, handlebar and clamp, just because the old is rough and lock is missing. Also new trans cap, as the stock one is disintigrating.

Cheers!

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

How loud are those two pipes compared to stock?

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

My e50 magnum rips up hills, buts its only got like 5 original parts remaining. Graham's response++.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) /

> Layton Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> How loud are those two pipes compared to stock?

They arent as quiet as the stock pipe, pretty much every aftermarket pipe is noticeably louder than stock. That said, the estoril is probably the quietest of all the aftermarket pipes.

On the other end of the spectrum, the "snail" type circuit pipes are some of the loudest, mainly because of their profile, thin metal construction, and small baffles.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

haven't run the tecno stock pipe so i dunno but the tecno estoril is super quiet. Proma GP is another great choice for a quiet, stock looking pipe that works great on a stock cylinder.

but once again, none of the pipes are really going to help much with going up hills.

did you post on another thread you only are going about 20 mph? something is wrong with your bike, that should go at least 30 bone stock.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Im running the tecno stock pipe and it is pretty under whelming. Everything Graham said is spot on. I personally prefer the proma circuit over the gp on a stock hi torque za cylinder. Also in addition to flipping the clutch for a later shift, adding a 19t front sprocket will get you to 25 or so in first gear.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Also, invest in a temperature gauge. It will help to tell you when you are getting close boiling point when ripping up them hills.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

I was rippin up some monster hills on my polini this weekend, ridin' dubs, really making her eat.

Its a good thing i didn't have a temp gauge or i might have let off!

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

I have a couple other posts. My bike will hit 30 going up a slight incline with my 200lbs on it. It takes a bit to get there. On a flat, 30 is no problem. Downhill 30+. Up my steep hill, it goes 12 to 15 and stays in first gear. Really it's not horrible, but I thought if I could get it up the hill at 20 or so, and get a little more top end and torque, it would be worth spending 2 to 300.

I was actually pretty impressed as it's pretty much what I remember at 15 when I was only 135 lbs or so. My goodies just showed up from Treat, so I can do some work on er this weekend. Will be nice just having some new shoes. Also got new brake pads. Front seem good, but back is a bit sketchy.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Overpriced Parts /

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I was rippin up some monster hills on my polini this weekend, ridin'

> dubs, really making her eat.

>

> Its a good thing i didn't have a temp gauge or i might have let off!

My 5 personal ZA 50 bikes, which all go 55-60mph (3 Polini 2 Gila) I built 10 to 14 years ago, all still run and have 15-20k mi on them (with maintenance),

All were tuned Without having a Temperature gauge and all never seized at speed, I had a few issues but no real damage, I replaced a questionable piston but ended up using it in a used kit that ran fine for a year on a bike before I sold it,

But to be honest they were 05-07 castings which were of better materials/made better/whatever and could take heat better then some of these newer casting ones maybe?

When I got my first trail tech head temperature gauge a typical full throttle run of 2-3 solid miles with some hills I was hitting over 390 on polini kit bikes on and low 400°s on Gila kit bikes which was kinda scary but were stabilized temps (meaning didn’t go any higher),

Since I run points ignition/non-retarding ignition I have to run a lower RPM pipe (derestricted estroil) not a 6 or 8p type and za50s and being the best non-varied 2 speed moped engine ever invented (if you build them right) like Torque not high rpm hp for no gaps between first and second gear and long life,

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Ken, every post you make is anecdotal. Its cool that worked for you, but there are many many ways to get the same and better results. You live in flatsville ohio. He is asking about hill climbing power, not how to build a 55mph bike.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Wait...the estriol sidebleeds look really cool & it’s really quiet.

I have a 70cc treat’s reed kit with a 19phbg and estriol, it’s way quieter at mid throttle cruiseing compared to my stock 50cc with a 14mm bing & derestricted pipe.

They painted the estriol with wrong heat paint. It bubbles when it gets hot then when it cools it hardens and chips. look at the photo half the pipe is rusted (edited)

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

Overpriced Parts /

> Daniel '' Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Ken, every post you make is anecdotal. Its cool that worked for you, but

> there are many many ways to get the same and better results. You live in

> flatsville ohio. He is asking about hill climbing power, not how to

> build a 55mph bike.

Can’t you and your pre-judgments go away, I don’t live in Flatsville Ohio, I live up hill from Cuyahoga Valley,

I got several hills just a few mi away and 3 are very steep hills (one you have to stop/almost make a complete stop you go up it) very few stock bikes if any could make it up them without pedaling and even then it would be so slow the vehicle behind you would hit you,

I can tackle any hill going in and out of Cuyahoga Valley including the dangerous Granger Road hill that 8 people died on making a ban on heavy trucks using granger road hill though some trucks still attempt to use it and can’t stop at the bottom

47B1D625-43D8-40C6-92ED-66E0BFA5E9ED.jpeg

Even in west Cleveland area it isn't complete flatland, to the west is rocky river valley and to east into the flats river area to Lake Erie both have some steep hills,

I ride in all those places too,

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I was rippin up some monster hills on my polini this weekend, ridin'

> dubs, really making her eat.

>

> Its a good thing i didn't have a temp gauge or i might have let off!

With no disrespect to the OP, you seem more than capable of being able to read your mopeds stats Graham. A temp gauge helps less experianced people get a helping hand before seizeville. Call it insurance.

Re: E50 vs ZA50 for better hill climbing??

haha yeah good point, just saying for a stock cylinder its probably not needed.

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