Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

I was TRIGGERD. My treats puch cdi trigger went out and it was super weird. Would run for 15sec under load then die like it was outta gas.

Restarted then boom, same thing, died under load sometimes with a backfire.

Swapped in a new trigger and we're rolling again.

But....I looked at every other trigger I owned, and was really surprised at something. The treats trigger's steel pickup is very wide, way way way too fucking wide I think. Every other pickup I own has a 3/16 max length in which it triggers. The treats pickup is like 3/8, which is like 6/16 and also 12/32 so that's just too much to get a tight consistent spark. I think these coils eat themselves because of this. Shitty high rpm triggering cuz the spot is too large and vague.

So I've heard the moby trigger works better. Guess how wide the trigger is? 5/32 which is 10/64 and 20/128 so lets maybe try something cool.

I'm going to sharpen my trigger into a point that's 5/32 wide and see if it lasts forever. It seems like a no brainer. Sorry if I triggered you folks with no brains. I'm an ableist I guess.

But back to pickups.

Here we go

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(edited)

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Well let's see what happensBROOOOOOOOO

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Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Well ya, seems a lil snappier but might just be psycho schematic.

Idk but I'm gonna run it for a bit.

I dropped timing a lil down by doing this I think, feels like it. I'll just check timing tomorrow and bubp it ub if needed.

But yeah, if you've had treats cdi trigger issues I think this might help keep a trigger running better and longer. It makes sense as to what's happening kinda. But I don't claim to know Jack shit. But if it does work well right on.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Very interested in this possible discovery

also love "pyscho schematic"

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

did u cut up the faulty or the new?

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

I cut the new one (wasn't new just new to me)

I was thinking of cutting the one that was acting up. Might try that.

Wouldnt that be something...if it started working again??

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

You've checked resistance across the different coils? Did you find anything there?

Did the failed coil short out or break continuity?

Gauss' stuff always confuses me for some reason, I had to take e-mag twice back in college. I know that core diameter is part of the equations in working out what's going on in a system like this. In a reversed situation, buzzer, the smaller core will energize and release quicker but be weaker at the same voltage.

And I'm probably half right and speaking to someone who actually knows way more about such things, damn, forgot for a moment what you do outside of mopeds. Heh.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Very cool. Also, The MBK trigger on Treats has a smaller metal part. Could be the secret? I like those better than the white one. You just have to trim the metal piece down a bit.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Yes the moby one is in the pic. I used it for a friends build and liked it

As for resistance, they read like 22-26ohms, I gotta cut that one into a point that was acting up and see if it's death was from a short or possibly from something very different.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

What air gap / clearance to flywheel are these triggers suppose to have ?

Might a narrower gap improve performance ?

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Airgap isn't the issue.

It's pickup Area of the trig.

Interesting observation:

just checked my timing , , it never read so cleanly with my light before with a treats cdi stator.. There was zero flash, just perfect reading with this modded trigger.

I did drop timing by about 2-3deg. But all the revving seems much more crisp. I don't know how to explain it better.

I gotta cut this flywheel up tho, you can't adjust shit without pulling the flywheel. Fuck that. You getting cut

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Drilled a hole to adjust timing via the trigger. I loosen the trigger and turn it whatever direction I want cuz I cut off the lil bumpers that stopped it from swiveling a bit. But that swivel can get me like 20deg range. Just so sick of pulling the flywheel to adjust timing.

Not worried about vibrations from only one hole, that's what he said.

cool. So far so good. Will report back if the trigger pickup dies.

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Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

nice!

yeah one thing i know for sure is that the puch cdi trigger coil puts out too much juice, that is what fries the trimming capacitor on the pietcard CDI when you hook up a 2041 to a puch stator. i was working with some really baller EE's back in texas when i was playing with this stuff and we cut apart 3 fried CDI boxes that had been on Puch CDI and they were all failed due to over voltage of the trigger trim capacitor.

when the CDI fries the trimming capacitor, i think it lets the input voltage go too high and that is why the timing jumps around and goes all crazy on that setup as they are dying until it finaly kills the semiconductor.

i don't know a whole lot about magnet theory either, even though i did pass like 4 classes during which it was covered, haha... just like most college classes you do a bunch of time domain dif-eq shit but you dont learn anything you can fucking use.

I did do some experimenting with setting timing welding on tabs to the outside of flywheel at one point - obviously you have too J. The pulse doesn't start where the tab starts and it doesn't start where it ends, and the distance of the tab changes it too... If you think about it, the external style pickups that read off a tab, the pickup is the magnet and the tab is just plain steel, so this kind of pickup is basically inverterd where the pickup is plain steel and its reading off the passing magenet, so just like changing the welded on the outside flywheel tab changes the timing signal, this one changing the core of the coil will change timing signal.

either way these things are pretty dumb, they are just looking for voltage to get above a certain point and the SCR or whatever transistor thingy blows its load. the trick is just keeping the components all alive and working across a huge rpm/voltage range.

i think the main problem with the puch cdi pickup is too fine of wire and too many turns, it makes too much voltage for the 'standard CDI' stuff to work. I'd like to try rewinding one at some point to make less volts but if you can accomplish the same thing by cutting the tab down with electrical wyzzardy, thats a lot less work.

or just throw the MBK one on there and don't look back, which is where i'm at right now

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

I understand what you're saying,

But I'm sticking with my theory based on intuition and myth and legend alone.

The longer metal of the trigger cannot be the tab. It's got a coil on it. That changes the whole deal

If you can show me a reliable cdi trigger which has a long ass metal pickup part I'll withdraw my hypothesis. Or if this one dies.

I just got a feeling

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

yeah it would be nice to have an oscilloscope but i don't got one. its hard enough keeping all the shit running on my farm without fucking with CDI's and shit.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

My 2041 treat set up has been great for over a year now. God knows how many hours are on this stator too, I dug it out of the ??? stator pile. The lighting coil did get cooked a couple months back.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

I've got a treats CDI that has always cut out on my ZA50 maxi at high rpm... This seems and sounds like an excellent discovery. I totally agree that all other triggers are narrower...

It's not a fucking light coil, it's an instantaneous trigger! Gonna cut this bitch and report back. 3 years of a wall at 47mph lol.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

That's what I was thinking.

I pay lots of attention to variables ...and when something doesn't look like everything else, and the weird designed thing is known to be problematic....well.....it's either a novel new design with a purpose, or it's a stupid design that needs to be refined.

I've never seen any trigger go bad ever, except these.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

Graham and other smarty book learning folks,

In magneto theory, I know that wire size and amount of turns is the main variables. But.....

When a coil has a long pickup area,

a longer "time" area where it makes its voltage, what does that affect?

Max voltage? Amperage? Just a longer "on" period?

If one took a lighting coil and shortened its steel core ends down by half, what would the results be?

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

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We see here coil size obviously matters... I'm interested in the difference between actual coil diameter and effective coil diameter, since the effective coil diameter is what Jbot changed.

Also the core material matters. I'd assume the cheaper pickups use cheaper core material.

In tattoo machines if the core becomes a permanent magnet the electromagnet becomes much less efficient, requires more voltage to operate. I'd imagine in the pickup circuit the same would he true. Makes me wonder if the pickups that become erratic or fail are still electrically intact, but the core has magnetized causing bad behavior.

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The time obviously matters too. Jbot's modification may simply be reducing the voltage being sent to the CDI enough that it keeps the CDI from overloading and becoming erratic.

Even if I never use the information I like to know the why of things. It may help me somewhere down the road.(edited)

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

That's pretty cool.

I guess I can test its voltage by drill turning the engine and reading the pickup voltage with/without the trimming mod

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

> JBOT Admin Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> That's pretty cool.

>

> I guess I can test its voltage by drill turning the engine and reading

> the pickup voltage with/without the trimming mod

As much ignition tinkering as you do I'm surprised you haven't built a rig like the old distributor tuning machines.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

yeah this is where my knowledge falls short, i talked to the guy who designed the stators at harley about this stuff and he said they design the core using FEA software but obviously coils pre-date computers by a few hundred years so some smart fuckers knew how to do the core design without fancy pants computer tools and there are rules for it.

the single ended pickup coil thing is weird too... so the magnets pass and its pulling on the core with a N-S (say, i dunno) then the magnet switches and it goes S-N.... but its not push-pull like it is with a power coil because its only seeing one side of the magnet. the flux happens from changing direction, so i think a wider tab would change direction faster all else being equal because the magnets are covering a bigger distance in the same RPM?

i dunno i'm just thinking out loud, either way all signs point to the bigger core generating more juice which has the ability to fry shit including the ultra fine wire the coil is wound with. the more power coming out of the coil the faster it charges the capacitor in the r-c network on the input side and the sooner your cdi triggers so that explains the timing shift.

its also weird it has that little fork in it? what an odd design feature.

Re: Treats puch cdi trigger prob? idea for better performance with fucking fractions

I rode the derbi on a little longer ride today and it's pretty great. When I'm riding at a constant rev it just sounds really clean. It sounded good before but this is better.

Waiting for the trig to die

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