e50 Tomar clutch users

I've been searching these forums along with others to get some info from those that use a Tomar clutch in their e50, but can't find anything. I know lucky2strokes used to have a kit but that seems to have disappeared from the web. The only only info I was able to find was a build by Tyler Brekke (sp?) on 1977 mopeds, but didn't see any info on the clutch setup.

Whats the difficulty in converting one of these over to use in an e50? Is it worth it?

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

KTM tomar, modified KTM or V1 Bell with e50 gear, pull start.

Edit: to the best of my knowledge, I haven’t gone done that road yet but have looked into it.(edited)

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

I have looked into it too but I was confused because I saw you have to taper the tomar dry clutch....or is it wet. I was confused by my reaseaech..... idk I have a KTM clutch in my KS e50 now.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

todd amundson /

Lots of metal on metal if you’re not careful. Tomar backing plate needs grinding out for fitting without rubbing the basket. Even then the clutch sits less than a mill from the basket face. No bushings here. Only needle bearings allowed in the basket. It’s lots of set up. It’s not for the street so I wouldn’t want to waste my time putting one on a stock pinto.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Yes if you're putting out the kind of power that you need a Tomar clutch then you need to change the jackshaft and clutch Bell gear so that it is a straight cut gears.

otherwise when the engine warms up and the aluminum cases expand your crankshaft will start to float from side-to-side destroying the ring Groove retainer in the cases.

I've had this happen in less than a hundred miles.

and this was even after I sanded down the case halves on a big piece of glass to tighten the clearances just a little bit and it still happened a lot of folks will attempt putting into the bearings with the snap ring and cut the case on me Magneto side to assist with this issue.

but basically when you try to push more than 8 or 10 horsepower out of an e 50 you're going to have a lot of problems with the clutch assembly and gears especially if you're running the angle tooth gears.

and most of the aftermarket clutch bells are kind of thin and don't have a step in the side they are straight wall so when they attempt to thermally expand they tend to crack at the edge of the Bell going to the flat surface connecting it to the gear this is a very common issue I have seen and had several clutch Bells blow into multiple pieces.

And it usually takes out the jackshaft gear.

Chainsaw clutch with straight cut gears for the real win.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Thanks for all the info guys, that helps a lot!

I found this Tomar clutch for the KTM 50 SX 01-08, which is a wet clutch. I know their regular centrifugal clutches for those models have the correct taper for an e50 crank so I assume this Tomar would work on an e50 crank without modification?

Tomar Clutch KTM 50

From what I understand, the bell that's included with that would just need its gear pressed out, and another pressed in. I have one thats already bored with a needle bearing, so would just need to transfer it over to the Tomar bell, right? Todd you mention clearances, is this if you try to use the clutch with a different bell or with the included bell?

My current setup is a V1 bell/needle bearing and a KTM 50 centrifugal clutch (with pull start). And polini 64 kit + 15mm bing (soon to be 24mm OKO along with some intake porting), sidebleed estoril, HPI cdi. It's been very reliable, besides the clutch issues.

The "KTM clutch" I have is a chinese knock off hub with real KTM shoes. The springs I got were a little too stiff so I've been experimenting with different springs/washers but have not had great luck. Those chinese hubs SUCK! I think the poor tolerances caused the shoes to not really lock into the hub snugly and they apparently banged around and damaged the shoes. The hubs also crack if you torque the retaining bolts too much (IE even the slightest amount of torque in this case).

Looking into real KTM hubs and shoes as a replacement, the price equals to about the same as that Tomar clutch, thus shifting my interest into maybe using those instead. It would be mostly for street use, though. But with how traffic drives around here, I need something that is a bit more aggressive than how the KTM one is performing, and something more consistent/reliable. I miss the trickmetric/treatmetric ones.. but had terrible luck with springs breaking on those constantly, even after chamfering the holes. So that caused one of those shoes to get damaged thus kind of leaving me without either clutch setup being usable at the moment.

I've seen a lot of back-and-forth on using straight cut vs helical, I am only around 150lbs so dunno if its not as much an issue for me but would definitely be interested if I can get the cash for that setup!(edited)

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

tomar, morini and ktm clutches wont last in a daily rider. They are designed for children to race a few times and then be torn down and have stuff replaced. They work in a race moped or similar. A 2 shoe braced with lightened shoes and kick start springs is perfect set up for everyday riding. If youre doing a lot of stop and go, just gear down, your clutch is working too hard if youre slipping to 30 mph in city traffic. 17x45 is the best daily gearing.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Interesting to hear that because the KTM one I have been messing with has lasted just fine for a few years with almost no maintenance, I just decided it was slipping too high for my liking which started the string of bad luck lol.

I have seen quite a few reviews on the Tomars with people that have ran several seasons before doing any maintenance on them so this seems like conflicting information.

I've tried the lightened 2 shoe thing with kick start springs and this setup just tears the shoes up unfortunately. OEM or aftermarket it's the same issue. It's got plenty of torque to pull even when the clutch is fully engaged at low RPM, so I'm not concerned about gearing. Just need something as reliable as the KTM one has been but with a slightly lower grab point. Or at least be tunable in some way.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

> Jeff M Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting to hear that because the KTM one I have been messing with

> has lasted just fine for a few years with almost no maintenance, I just

> decided it was slipping too high for my liking which started the string

> of bad luck lol.

>

> I have seen quite a few reviews on the Tomars with people that have ran

> several seasons before doing any maintenance on them so this seems like

> conflicting information.

>

> I've tried the lightened 2 shoe thing with kick start springs and this

> setup just tears the shoes up unfortunately. OEM or aftermarket it's the

> same issue. It's got plenty of torque to pull even when the clutch is

> fully engaged at low RPM, so I'm not concerned about gearing. Just need

> something as reliable as the KTM one has been but with a slightly lower

> grab point. Or at least be tunable in some way.

Were you running springs or the washer stack in the KTM? I just installed one with springs. Have not really tested it yet. WLR Dusty had one in his Black Mamba for years. Not Charlie Buzzard owns it and it is still using the same shoes. Also I know you can even get sealers springs for it on ingage at lower RPM. I am not on expert on this by no means. I just got into the KTM caus the same problem your having.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

And KTM has the junior spring sets which kick in at a lower RPM.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

The tomar will shatter the friction discs if you dont check the tolerances somewhat frequently. If your China hub with ktm shoes lasted years why not just do that again?

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Exactly^^^

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

todd amundson /

Meh

5CF25F11-2921-480A-AB01-3CE5522B915A.jpeg
zero space between basket and clutch
7860D067-B670-4D1C-B1BE-ED862AC21A22.jpeg
special stepped washer to go over taper a bit
E93AEA97-BA31-45C1-96F0-84F1B50AF2CC.jpeg

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

todd amundson /

Metal to metal problems. Inside of basket ground out

922F7593-2932-4D33-BFC5-B0928B5D4396.jpeg
3ABD1CF7-D534-4DCA-9F84-3FB8C5FF4761.jpeg

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

That’s like a $600 plus dollars set up.

Fuck the v1 bell do this instead:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B073RMPZ52/

For 35 bucks I get a clutch with a matching bell

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Nooooo^^^^ I made it 3 blocks on mine and it turned my trans fluid into liquid sandpaper. There is a thread about these cheep ones somewhere.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

> Baron Von Hamilton Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Nooooo^^^^ I made it 3 blocks on mine and it turned my trans fluid into

> liquid sandpaper. There is a thread about these cheep ones somewhere.

Buy some stock pads or buy an entire stock clutch then.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

> Rocco Taco Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Baron Von Hamilton Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Nooooo^^^^ I made it 3 blocks on mine and it turned my trans fluid

> into

>

> > liquid sandpaper. There is a thread about these cheep ones somewhere.

>

> Buy some stock pads or buy an entire stock clutch then.

I have bout real pads. I did still have not tested them.... sooo not giving him advice to do that with out testing it for a bit. They fit in the cheep hub just fine..... I can at least say, hey they fit. I spent 75$ on the shoes and 25$ on springs. But I have not tested it yet. Have your tried it?

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

> Daniel '' Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

>r. A 2 shoe braced

> with lightened shoes and kick start springs is perfect set up for

> everyday riding.

What I use in my 10.5hp everydayrider .

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Adam Smith Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Daniel '' Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> >r. A 2 shoe braced

>

> > with lightened shoes and kick start springs is perfect set up for

>

> > everyday riding.

>

> What I use in my 10.5hp everydayrider .

OK

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Adam Smith Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > > Daniel '' Wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> >

>

> > >r. A 2 shoe braced

>

> >

>

> > > with lightened shoes and kick start springs is perfect set up for

>

> >

>

> > > everyday riding.

>

> >

>

> > What I use in my 10.5hp everydayrider .

>

> OK

He actually put his maxi on a dyno. I remember the thread, you were condescending in that one too. Dont need to be so vehemently doubtful of everything, maybe try being constructive for once?

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

> Baron Von Hamilton Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Rocco Taco Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > > Baron Von Hamilton Wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> >

>

> > > Nooooo^^^^ I made it 3 blocks on mine and it turned my trans fluid

>

> > into

>

> >

>

> > > liquid sandpaper. There is a thread about these cheep ones

> somewhere.

>

> >

>

> > Buy some stock pads or buy an entire stock clutch then.

>

> I have bout real pads. I did still have not tested them.... sooo not

> giving him advice to do that with out testing it for a bit. They fit in

> the cheep hub just fine..... I can at least say, hey they fit. I spent

> 75$ on the shoes and 25$ on springs. But I have not tested it yet.

> Have your tried it?

No I have not tried it yet its been on my list. I’ve used the v1 bell but I’ve never tried the cheap matching clutch & bell I don’t know if anyone has tried using a matching Ktm bell yet?

This guys asking about a $600 dollar set up that eats it self to death. Call me what you want for pointing someone down an unknown road but I like to hear the stories.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

I know the cheep one lasted 3 blocks with my Gila.

Rider Macho

Look towards the end.....(edited)

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

todd amundson /

All of these ideas have been tried/tested. I currently rock a china ktm clutch and pads in my race bike with a lightened KTM bell.

IMG_2122.JPG
Iv'e put OEM shoes in China hubs and hands down, that was a waste of money. In a recent post someone even said they invented a kickstart e50 ktm conversion and I had to laugh because all this shits been done before. Hell, I even worked on one of those set ups recently. By no means am I trying to come across as a dick. The Ktm E50 stuff is getting popular
IMG_1807.JPG

Back to pads, I have run those china kevlar pads for two seasons with three rebuilds. Never had an issue with creating liquid sand paper. 2 two Cool is the way to go for these clutches but on the street I use CVT fluid only.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Todd I wonder if I just got shit quality ones. They turned to dust right away. Ya I copied that dudes idea for KS..... I thoug the InVEnTioN comment was making fun of the Brent dude....I can’t tell who is being sarcastic anymore.

The bell I bought off you is sweet BTW. Thanks.(edited)

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Daniel '' Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> He actually put his maxi on a dyno. I remember the thread, you were

> condescending in that one too. Dont need to be so vehemently doubtful of

> everything, maybe try being constructive for once?

Sure thing dude, I'll get right on that.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Okay this is sweet, mopedarmy needs to document this stuff to add too the wiki so guys like me do not think they discovered NEW moped clutch modification configuration technology.

Thank you for posting, I truly didn’t known if anyone had attempted to use both a ktm clutch and bell. This opens the doors for more power without spending much money and replacement part are highly available unlike the treats clutch and trickmetrix. I gotta build one for sure now.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Let see how Long mines will last . So your CVT fluid is the way to go ?

99D13AA0-212E-4AD4-A5E9-79EE1A9AF112.jpeg

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

Brian is that real or fake? I heard the fake ones with bumps, the friction material peals off.

Re: e50 Tomar clutch users

I believe there the fake ones . Got mines as a set complete set with custom bell

9E069F10-852E-4CD8-92E4-AF2DCC39F4DC.jpeg

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