Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

I just picked this Sachs clutch up for a damn mint from the land of the Dooch. I mostly just wanted it to molest in an attempt to improve the magnificent performance of the teeny Sachs clutch.

Has anyone ever seen the clutch disks that are asymmetrically padded like this? How quickly will I be lofting them into the nearest garbage receptacle? Seems dumb to me but what do I know.

The piece that the diaphragm spring sits on also looks a little weird and kinda thick compared to what I remember, but it might just be there other side of it. idk.

s-l1600.jpg

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

It's kind of nice that they don't swell like the stock clutch pads.

I don't recall the performance of them being anything amazing.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

Asymmetrical pads encourage evenly distributed wear. There is nothing wrong with them.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Oh I'm not saying anything is wrong with them. I would assume they might have some tendency to have a slightly higher coefficient of static friction. But I'm not sure about once they start slipping. Maybe not, maybe it spreads the heat out or some shit. idk.

I am working with:

80cc Athena Reed kit - case matched - no porting.

Mikuni TM24 - 24mm intake

31mm ID exhaust header to that fat fuckin treats pipe.

I feel like they are probably not worth the effort to try with this stupid build.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

if it was one concentric ring they'd wear a groove into the plates and run that one section dry. The asymmetry also helps them lubricate. The full fiber pads had sipes. I think the concentric rings of Nick K's performance clutches wound up being one of their weakest points.

you could probably get them relined for like 30-40 bucks apiece and fill in more of the surfaces, that might be kinda cool. or if you're very bold - reline em yourself. maybe you can beef up the engagement that way?

I think that style is thicker? so no converting to a 7.

also 2 speed! sweet!

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Born to be WillD Wrote:

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>

> also 2 speed! sweet!

yeeahh buddy! I had bounced some ideas off of you a few months ago in a PM. But the bike's finally coming together.

Pretty much made one attempt at WOT and immediately roasted the old stock pads as soon as it came up on the pipe.

Finding a 7 piece is proving to be too difficult so I am going to try and beef up the 5 a bit. Maybe use a set screw and stuff. I really just want a much stiffer spring. I feel like that would help loads but that's a bit of task to find as well.

I still haven't tried running the L2S "performance" disks. That was my next plan and I'd assume they'll hold up slightly better but they don't look much different than stock. The material seems nicer though; more modern for sure.

I may try to reline them. I have a ton of McMaster friction material to mess with. Though I'm not sure how I would cut it well. Even then I'm sure it would be too thick and take more work to make them super disappointing.

I'm gonna put pegs on it cause the foot shifter and pedals are super awkward. Also the coaster brake will probably kill me so it's probably best to make that a pedal too.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

What thickness plates/pads do you need to make a 7 piece?

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Not sure. I think the splined gear doodad is longer too

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

super curious/amused by the shifter setup

I think it's true the 7 pieces had a longer spliney piece but you can still make 7 fit on the shorter ones. you just need the thin plates. like usually each set had one thinner clutch plate (2 @ 2.3, 1 @ 1.7) and you use all three of the thinner ones - but yea requires some digging or someone with a pile of sachs clutch sets.

then you can ditch the outer alignment washer from your manual clutch set or the thick outer shims on the automatics. Then it lines up pretty well.

with the 9 pc ubers it was hard to even fit in the clutch bell lengthwise

The setscrew doesn't help much except if you're spinning the nut off a lot. which used to be a big problem with sachs but I've found usually just the 2 thinner nuts locked together is totally sufficient

Maybe shimming can give you some better grip? you can add spacers under the compression spring retainer guy on the back.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Born to be WillD Wrote:

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> super curious/amused by the shifter setup

>

Foot shift works pretty well except for being super weird with the crank arms and putting it in neutral. you kinda have to hover your foot in the middle, I have it set up so if your toe is resting on top of the trans it's in neutral. The spring wants to push the selector into second gear so if you are idling with the clutch disengaged it'll pop into 2.

I talked to an old Bourbon Bandit that walked by my DC shop one evening (small world) and he was telling me about his 505/2 and how he always had a hard time getting it into second cause it would rev so high or something and was hard to get it to fall into second. Either way, pedal fixes that cause you can just jam the bitch into gear instead of relying on the spring tension.

> The setscrew doesn't help much except if you're

> spinning the nut off a lot. which used to be a big

> problem with sachs but I've found usually just the

> 2 thinner nuts locked together is totally

> sufficient

>

> Maybe shimming can give you some better grip? you

> can add spacers under the compression spring

> retainer guy on the back.

Ah i forgot about the jam nut trick. I'll do that.

My plan is to shim the diaphragm spring or fit a second spring in there with 2 thin/1 thick plates or something. If i can fit 2 springs in there, I feel like that would be ample pressure. Hand cramps.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

That's a sweet bike.

the falling into 2nd on the grip shift is a problem but I just put a bonus spring to pull the arm back and it's solved

often with the gripshift too I find the problem is the shift selector on the grip. I had that problem and seen others with the same, where it gets worn so either it won't pull all the way to 1st, or if you adjust it so it does, it wont drop down to 2nd well.

hand cramps yep.

there used to be stronger springs you could get. seem to be unavailable anymore. ebay.de from the same guys that made the uber clutches, but they were only like 35E for the stiff springs.

I like the oil slosher idea too. but I dunno that it helped

I actually just got my old 2 speed back, which is insane - fuck the swoops - but I'm curious to dig in there and see what I can do, having thought about it some more.

I unfortunately let go of the uber parts on a different build, and it's just a "stock" D, been dicked around with a fair bit by the folks who'd owned it and passed it around since I let it go til the swoops got it back; but man - great bike.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Born to be WillD Wrote:

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> That's a sweet bike.

>

Thanks! I think so too. Just about full custom lol. It's been sitting for a few weeks and I'm itching to get back to it and finish it up. I've been saying that since February. I have a few things to fab yet if i'm switching to pegs, but that's no big deal and I enjoy getting bits of metal in my hands for weeks.

> there used to be stronger springs you could get.

> seem to be unavailable anymore. ebay.de from the

> same guys that made the uber clutches, but they

> were only like 35E for the stiff springs.

>

I looked forever for a spring that would work, but they are pretty damn hard to come by and im not dropping some hundred dollars getting one custom made. I've already invested too much in this stupid mopad that no one will buy.

I paid 35 Euro for the whole clutch. Diaphragm springs effectively increase in strength by a factor of n when stacked esp linear tension ones like in these clutches. So I think that will work or at least help. Probably more pressure than the uber spring. I attached a pretty nice pdf about diaphragm spring physics if you are into charts and data and shit. it's pretty damn cool what they are capable of for being a stupid fingerly springy disk.

> I like the oil slosher idea too. but I dunno that

> it helped

>

Yeah you push this idea a lot. I don't really see it being super useful but I have like 2 minutes of riding on this setup so I don't know shit really.

> I actually just got my old 2 speed back, which is

> insane - fuck the swoops - but I'm curious to dig

> in there and see what I can do, having thought

> about it some more.

> I unfortunately let go of the uber parts on a

> different build, and it's just a "stock" D, been

> dicked around with a fair bit by the folks who'd

> owned it and passed it around since I let it go

> til the swoops got it back; but man - great bike.

I just want to prove everyone wrong about the Sachs clutch and rip wheelies all day. in my dreams ha!

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

This is all that matters really. I like me some charts. Springs are cool.

DiaSprig.JPG

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

the slosher thing was inspired by nick klaben who was building a 3 speed supersonic monster g3. it was pretty insane. but he build an oil cooler for it, swore it helped. That was when i started trying the sloshering idea. The euro manual clutch guys like em alot, believe it helps cool the oil, i dunno but it is a fun concept.

stacking springs should totally work.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

♣Slew Foot♣ /

look into the SiS sachs clutch from portugal. magik doughnut hmmmm. 1 disk.

i rebuilt mine with a combo of one thick, one thin friction pad and a thick secondary washer/shim on the end. the old 2 gang and 3 gang just sucked hard. as long as it engages and disengages propperly its all in the doughnut.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Do you have like... a link?

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

when i looked at it, i don't think there is room for two springs in there, but i never tried it.

part of the problem is that you don't get much travel, i think thats why they used the diaphragm spring in the first place

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Oh I have plans and parts to break shit in an attempt to make it work. Should come in the mail today or tomorrow. I will keep everyone posted since there seems to be a lot of these motors stateside now.

Probably start a new thread.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

♣Slew Foot♣ Wrote:

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> look into the SiS sachs clutch from portugal.

> magik doughnut hmmmm. 1 disk.

>

> i rebuilt mine with a combo of one thick, one thin

> friction pad and a thick secondary washer/shim on

> the end. the old 2 gang and 3 gang just sucked

> hard. as long as it engages and disengages

> propperly its all in the doughnut.

dafuq are you talking about, there is no doughnut in a 2 gang clutch

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

I keep trying to feed my moped doughnuts. It's just making everything sticky.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Yo, Check these things out. They're metal plates with some thin clutch junk on them. SUPER thin comparatively If my memory serves me right about the stock disks. They could just be worn to the point of useless; im not sure. Clutch material is pretty hard.

The wear pattern on the 3 metal disks is very ovular so these are kinda stupid if you ask me.

I was in fact on the toilet when I took these photos.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

dunno what the white dog was talking about there, but that's ok. not manual shifters anyway. also not accurate description of the SiS clutches, though it's true theyre the good ones. presumably thew 7pc came outta the SIS's

I think there's definitely enough room for 2 springs. you can take a number of spacers/washers out or mill em down if you needed to. and re-space with shims.

if ya got enough clutch stuff just start lining stuff up!

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

today is the day my dude. It's a shame it's going to be raining hats and frogs.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

2 springs fit with zero modifications. Shit fuckin rips.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

niiiice. i was thinking about it it might chew the bell up more but those are interchangeable

twinspring ftw

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Update: It held the power fine once engaged, I smoked it at the first stoplight though, my b. But hey, I went from blowing it at 1 mile to 2 miles. 100% improvement is good progress.

I really just need to learn how to ride the fucker. It is pretty beastly though.

I'll take the clutch apart again today and see what my weak point was this time. I think I can plane the pads down and make it a 7 piece clutch.

I am also running super thin ATF. I think this could also be an issue as a bit of slip from gear oil or something heavier would make the rig a little more forgiving when moving from a stop.

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

type f fluid and media blast the metal discs works really well with engagment

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

Media blasting is not an option for me at this time. I still haven't taken it apart to see what part of the clutch shit the bed this time.

I already use a really high grip fluid and I think that might not be helping me keep from glazing the pads/shims. I have a metric ass-ton of clutch pressure with the two springs.

I've been thinking about this clutch a lot and there are a lot of parts you can remove (well like 2) to add more disks and shims and shit. I just need to dig into it and use the old noodle a bit.

Gotta Get some longer pins and maybe some fingerly washer kinda springs to push everything apart when the clutch opens to hopefully reduce any drag that I'm sure isn't helping. I have a lot of clutch parts to mess with so I may be able to fashion an "uber clutch" with mild ease.

Honestly, I just really hope that a 7/9 piece will skookum enough. fuck it bro. I'm gonna rally this damn bike. I swear. Mark my words.(edited)

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

One of these springs works, I just can't remember which:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#finger-disc-springs/=17yf47j

Might have some in my garage somewhere(edited)

Re: Have ye seen deez Sachs Clutch disks

Gotta sand the edges down cause they overlap the pads:

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