Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

I had another thread up, trying to figure out how to get my bike running right and not so hot, I tried alot of yalls sugestions and learned a ton, still couldnt figure it out, so I got a leak down tester and found my leak, there was a defect in the cylinder, a bb sized hole connecting the exaust port to the bottom stud hole that runs near it. No wonder how ever many different times I tried different gaskets and stuff I couldnt get rid of it. I didnt have an air leak, I had an air flood!

So I would like to make a shoutout to treats, coolest company ive come accross in a loong time. I bought the cylinder from them, a few years ago, I emailed benji explaining my situation, not really expecting much, and oh how it made my day when he replied telling me they are sending me a new cylinder! They are also sending me a t shirt! So fuckin great of them, I wanna high five him.

There is a web site called treats

Whose customer service can't be beat

They stock all the parts

So my moped will start

And keep It running up and down the street

So here is what im starting

Stock case, gonna case match, and drill intake

65cc dr kit

Malossi high comp head

mazzucchelli anticipato crank

13:13 dellarto sha

Malossi air filter

Malossi multivar variator and belt.

Proma circuit pipe.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Today I started getting ready to do the case match, ive come upon a problem.

KIMG0078.jpg

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So the upper port, it hangs off the cases seal a little bit. Ive read about people using jb weld, so im thinking ill rough up the surface, and put jb weld on and then carfully lap it smooth with the rest of the case.

Same solution, jb weld, if I grind through the case as well, the side thats the same side as the flywheel looks awfully thin, I dont see how I can match it up on that side without going through

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Ok I drilled my intake, hows it look?

311qv48.jpg

Just kidding, I saw that while I was researching what to do.

Ive been reading and looking at pictures, I get the jist of it, open it to 13mm or more, and dont go too deep, so that part can stay oval for the crank to pull in fuell correctly.

Should I just smooth the transition to the oval how it already is

KIMG0077.jpg

or lengthen it, maybe do math to make sure the oval has the same area as a 13mm circle.

I cant find much info on the oval part, I dont know how far to take it, because that would effect the intake the same way as cutting the crank, does anyone have any measurments or is this standardized in any way? It looks like the dutch sites have stuff figured out, but even translated to english it sounds like silly talk to me.

I worry because I already am getting the anticipato crank, I dont want to do anything that will hurt the performance gains it has to offer.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

If your worried about going through on that part, just add material (jb weld or alu. braze) and don't match it. Just leave it alone so the cylinder base can have sealing surface. Just verrrry lighty angle it into the port so there isn't a wall to hurt the flow.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

KIMG0086.jpg

Jb weld hellyeah, cleaned the surface with a ball bur and pored it on, its much more fluid than I remember! I had to make impromptu tape dams around the puddle. Milled it slowly on sandpaper on granite, while enjoying sunshine, watermelon, and beer. I think this should help with any sealing issues.

Now to start the case match, wonder how much jb weld ill end up needing there, lol.

Cmon people, anyone have anything to say or point me towards with regards to the elongated part of drilling the intake Hole?!?

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Dirty30 Dillon /

As for the intake patch, it looks pretty good. On the side where there is a bunch of material left, I'd bring it out as far as the opposing side. That's what I've done in the past and had good results.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Yeah Ivery done quite a few cases with pretty modified intake timings on the crank, and in my experience you can't actually go too big in the case window, as long as you leave about 1mm around the whole patch to seal it'll be all right going all the way up.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Sweet, thanks guys, just finished opening that, I ended up using a big ball bur for the transition instead of a file, and was able to get it super smooth to oval

Case matching done for the most part, I went through on both sides lol, wating on jb to dry up now.

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I think it looks better than the one I bought from a guy on here who claimed it was case matched for a dr kit and intake drilled to 13... intake was a little less than 12mm, and the matching well, you see...

KIMG0110.jpg

And I was able to hit 43 using that, a standard intake crank and a defective cylinder with an air flood, I cant wait to ride this engine!

My new wheels came today too, I bet , they will feel better than my out of round missing a spoke wheel I have on it right now, I am pumped to rock these.

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So I ordered fron treats the engine rebuild kit, I got the variated transmision rebuild kit instead, they are sending me the right thing and I was gonna send it back, but now im thinkin hell maybe I should pay for this too and do it up fresh, since its already here I dont know though 40 bucks is alot right now, im buying way to much shit for this thing, is it worth it to do right now? Or should I just do it with the next big treats haul?

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Dirty30 Dillon /

Honestly, inspect your trans.

If you don't have thrust washers between each gear and the case, keep the rebuild kit.

If you find any needle bearings with worn cages, keep the kit.

The rebuild is hard to do without a arbor/hydro press and the right tooling. But I've used a hammer, heat, and some clever socket-ry to get them in without damaged the cages.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Yeah, I'll probably just buy it. Hell its 30 years old, there's a leak I need to seal anyway, where I assume the previous owner screwed a screw in too far and it cracked through a little.

Last night I was thinking about Buddhist prayer wheels, ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_wheel ) so I took my new crank and laser engraved a mantra on it, I'll be spinning prayers out by the thousands a minute!, I'll probably do this to my variator and my clutch bell too, a little karma never hurt no one.

image.jpg

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

That's pretty funny actually, I really like that.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Ok, I have gotten it together. Threw it on my leakdown tester, sweeet, no leaks!

I was all excited and go and start it, fuck yes its runnin! Why so damn loud though? Oh, I should probably put the pipe on...

Pipe on, wouldnt run with the 78 jet, so I jumped down to 73. It runs, it sounds nice.

But my clutch will not engage, it just slips. Even at high revs,(well im scared to really push it, new kit and all) just gets all hot. It will catch and make the wherl spin if the wheel is off the ground. But if I put it down, it dont launch itself into my tools like it should, just starts slipping.

Its not the belt cause it will variate whilst slipping

I took the bell off and sanded the bell and the shoes with 400 grit. Still slipping.

It worked just fine before when the engine was fucked. I aint lightened them or modified anything inside the bell.

I did do a total rebuild on my gearbox, but I dont think anything I could do in there would cause these symptoms. And im pretty sure its the clutch slipping because I took it off after sanding and its all smooth again....

What gives, maybe the moped gods have forsaken me, should I buy a minty virgin engine from treats and melt it in sacrifice?

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

What weights do you have? does it variate on the stand?

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Malossi multivar, im pretty shure they said 6g on em and are black. Yeah its variating on the stand.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

I took it out and pedaled till it started to catch and it caught after a min, and seems like its working now. I dont know if its good as it was, since this is a new kit and everything I have to break it in before I can full throttle it.

Ugh, I just wanna pull the throttle and see what it can do! I dont know if I can handle a whole 300 miles, but ill enjoy the next two tanks of gas nice and easy.

I think im gonna upjet a little though, try 75.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

scott middleton /

trans oil on the the clutch pads? have you changed the seals in the clutch?

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Dirty30 Dillon /

If you didn't check the trans for a decent float than yeah, you could be binding in the trans which would def slip the clutches.

That or ^^^, there is oil/grease on the pads

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

I had pb blaster in my bell once. It slipped like mad with no take off. I remember putting a little baby powder in there and it worked again. Didn't need to take the bell off even. Try that as a test to rule out oil in your bell. If that's what it is, disassemble, clean and reinstall.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Its working now after I got it to grab riding down a long incline, I think it might have just needed to seat itself from reasembly maybe. It dont feel as good as it used to, but I also am breaking it in so im not pushing it.

Yeah I changed the seals, used the rebuild kit from treats. I dont see any leaks. Time will tell me though.

What do you mean by float? The wheel felt a touch tighter to spin when I first put it back together, but after a few spins from the engine it loosened up, super smooth now.

Ill try the baby powder tonight thats a good idea, its working now, but dont grab as good as it used to, killing my takeoff.

Thanks for the ideas guys.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Yeah, musta been a bit oily, its workin great now, cleaned it with brake cleaner. Ive been thinking about lightening the clutch shoes, thats for a later date though.

Guys, its soo much fun! Its actually riding, and the temps seem pretty good, I didnt have much batery in my phone earlier, but I put the gps on and it hit 41 real easy, and its got more room up to go, I just aint gonna push it yet, breaking in and all.

Ill bet someone a quarter I will break 50 on flat ground

Its holding between 330° and 370° riding at the same speed as all the cars on the 30mph roads.

I pulled my nice speedo from my bycycle, just have to figure out how to mount it to my mag wheels, and get some new batteries for it

I just upjeted to 75 from 73 feels good, still no 4 stroke at wot, gonna try 76 and 78 now, maybe temps will go even lower!

I have a question about my idle, when I start it, it will idle nice how I want it, but when I stop after riding for a while, like a stop sign or light, it idles high for a while then drops down to its nice idle. The high idle is strong enough to try to engage the clutch, like if I let go of the bike it would ghost away from me. It does it for maybe up. To 30 seconds before dropping down to a nice purring idle. is that gas clearing out of the engine or something. I couldnt find any info on that... Im pretty sure I dont have leaks, as I did a leak down test, retourqed my head after its first cool down and sprayed carb cleaner on the carb intake when I assembled it.

Hopefully someone knows whatsup with my idle, im gonna continue on fucking with my jetting, and riding this thing, yeeha! :-)

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

I cut my ride short, and I think my high idle is an airleak.

Rode better with a 76 jet, so I put in a 78.

With the 78, when I first get it started, it is boggy, like I can wot it and it will hardly go more than a shitty sounding idle, like it wants to die, but if I ease it up, like hold 1/8 throttle for a while it clears up, and then it runs fantastic, pulls better and has better throtle response than the lower jet, riding with cars in 30mph zone, not breaking 300°

I musta been real lean before with that 73 glad I didnt seize, probably will have helped break in seating the rings though.

Anyway, after a while of smooth sailing, the high idle came back (wasnt doing it, till now) , I noticed it at a light, and over the next few blocks my temps shot up, I pulled over, temp gauge said I got up to 392. And it was doing the high idle, so I played with the choke, and was able to get the idle to sound nice and slow. So I am pretty sure I have a leak somewhere, since choke makes the idle sound right.

It must be caused by heat? I turned the ped off, and let it cool, started it up and it ran home fantastic, nice and cool, perfect idle. Is there any areas I should be looking specifically where this is a common issue? A leak that goes away when it cools down. I cant try to find it by spraying cause its not always there, same concerns about trying to use the leakdown tester.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Yeah Ren...you got a leak somewhere. You shouldn't really be hitting over 300, but also shouldn't need a jet bigger then a 68. All my builds are running off 64 or 66 main jets, and they rarely reach 300 at the hottest parts of the cylinder..nothing about 260 on the head. I know people run above 300, but for me that always means a problem. Check these areas with your carb cleaner:

- carb where it clamps to intake

- spray between case and base for base gasket leak

- between head and base for head gasket leak

- decomp

- exhaust where it clamps to flange/ this could be base gasket or exhaust leak...don't let your clamp come above the lip/top of header

- bottom fan shroud screw or right in the window at the points(seal leak)

nothing happens til you find it!

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

I have been running over 400 degrees with my DR at WOT.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Brit, what are you using to read your temps?

And yeah tomorows gonna be devoted to leak searching. Im gonna spray, then if I find nothing, drop the engine and do a leakdown test, Then if nothing, ride till I get the high idle and spray till I find it.

Ugh.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Decomp valve... so I lapped the shit out of it, got it alll kindsa nice. Put it back on leakdown tester... still decomp valve... air is escaping through the decomp passage in the exhaust port and out past the decomp valve stem... wtf... Is there even a way to fix that?

I cant even use the leakdown tester to look for other leaks, this ones too bad... why cant my shit just work?...

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Ren, once you talk about air gushing at the front bottom of the engine chances are your just feeling the fan which is normal function. You won't physically feel a vacuum leak.

I check temps in different spots with a laser gun

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Yo, im using a leakdown tester... so yes, I do feel air coming from the specific spot I specified, and yes im fully aware of the fan, which is not running, because the engine is on my bedroom floor with air being pumped into it, so I can can pinpoint the exact spot a leak is comming from.

We are measuring head temps using completly different methods from eachother, they will not line up, mines a trailtech sensor under the sparkplug, which im pretty sure is the method most people on these forums are using

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

scott middleton /

there are some decomp parts at treats, maybe you can refurb yours? Or seal it up. but starting might be difficult if compression is high enough.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

I started a thread over in repairs, as im drifting out of performance territory and into repair sorta stuff

https://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?6,3875386

Heres a shitty picture of whats happining, where red represents where air can go in or out

KIMG0138.jpg

And now that I think about it, I think I may have caused it, when I was lapping, some compound must have gotten down there and widened it.

Im thinking to try

A: jb weld the valve stem to fill any irregularities (probably wont work how I am picturing it)

B: block decomp passage in cylinder and reroute the passage to leave right out of the head. Im thinking the only downsides to this are, It will drip when I start it, and if my valve ever decides to not seal it might be an even worse vacum leak than if its routed to the exhaust port.

C: seal it and block it all off perminantly, or buy a new head... last resorts as I dont want to do either of those.

If you have any ideas please continue this discussion over in the other thread I linked to so I can keep this one on the topic of reaching 50mph, or at least a reliable 40...Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/15 01:49PM by renbo.

Re: Vespa bravo, steller's jay, lets do this up right.

Don't block it, starting is p hard with out it unless you have the gripiest starter clutches ever. I'd say get a new head and decomp.

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