Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

So, for some time, I've been wanting to properly set up 12V DC power on my Peugeot. I'm using a 5-coil stator with CDI, and the 12V DC would be nice for a water pump, or any other fun things (cool horn??).

I noticed that each of the posts on that stator is oriented at 60 degrees, so I thought I would be able to set up a nice 3-phase system like all modern Hondas use. This would mean I could use a nice, reliable Honda regulator/rectifier.

So, I rewound the coils to make 3 equal coils. I busted out the Dremel to move the ignition coil over to let me orient my power coils at 120deg.

At first, I tried a "wye" setup, with the neutral grounded to the stator plate/frame. With this, I had a nice strong 16VAC open-circuit measurement from ground to each phase. Due to the 120deg orientation of the coils, and the 4-pole magnet of the flywheel, this should have given a nice, evenly-spaced 3-phase system. But after connecting the regulator/rectifier, I had only a few volts DC coming out. It could be that I have a bad regulator/rectifier, but I decided to double check some Honda wiring diagrams. Seems like they all either use wye with a floating neutral (not grounded to frame) or delta.

So I disconnected neutral from ground, and checked the AC voltage across two of the three coil leads -- 2VAC :(

Then I tried delta configuration, with a similar result.

Does anyone know what I'm missing? It is something to do with only having 3 coils, each wrapped in the same direction?

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Current delta setup:

(edited)

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Tried wye with grounded neutral again. Use some RadioShack rectifiers, and I've got pretty solid DC now. A little low at 3500rpm idle, but hits 30+ DC at 8000rpm (open circuit).

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Basically ended up completely rewiring the bike last night. Seems to work pretty well. (edited)

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Nice work

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Not sure how accurate my Harbor Freight voltage gauge is... kind of useless when the needle shakes +/-5V due to bumps/vibrations haha.

Managed to find a nice car horn at HF, makes a nice toot toot. Thinking about switching to OOOGA horn, hmmm

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

WELL I GOOFED!

I can ride around, and make what looks like DC volts... but it seemed to be measuring pretty low. Even at 10,000rpm I was only reading about 11V on my gauge, with all my lights off and the battery disconnected. I could not for the life of me figure out what I was doing wrong.

Just had an epiphany, pulled out my magnet on a telescoping stick, and popped the flywheel off.

I assumed the flywheel was 4-poles (i.e. N-S-N-S in a 90-degree orientation).

With my coils spaced 120 degrees apart, this would have given me 3-phase, 120deg AC, perfecto for making beautiful full-wave rectified DC voltage with a tiny ripple that could be smoothed out by a battery.

I slid the magnet around my flywheel, and guess what. It has 6 poles (N-S-N-S-N-S in 60-degree orientation).

D'OH!

So, I'm rectifying 3 phases that are completely in phase, it turns out... which doesn't accomplish much in the way of making smooth DC.

The way I see it, I have a few alternatives...

1) Keep the coils at 120 degrees. Wire them in series to have a high-voltage single-phase AC output, rectify it, and use the dirty bouncing wave to maybe charge the battery. It's an AGM battery, it shouldn't care too much?

2) Switch to four coils, in a 60-120-60-120 orientation (like stock 6V Peugeot 5-coil setup). Wire the in-phase coils in series, and have two AC outputs. Rectified, this will provide the exact same shape as option 1, but with a little less voltage and more current.

3) Figure out some way to re-magnet the flywheel?????????? Having a 4-pole flywheel would make everything perfect. Don't most mopeds use 4 poles?

4) Make a custom stator plate with a 90-degree orientation. It's a simple enough shape (just a 2-d cutout with some provision to hold the coils in place). Don't have the tools for this, though.

5) Any of the single-phase setups with rectifying and some sort of smoothing. Maybe if I throw enough volts at it, the battery will be sufficient? (edited)

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

could you rectify each pole individually? you'd get a rediculous power ripple, so maybe some capacitors to handle that, but i think that would work....

i don't know jack about multiphase power but i work with an EE who knows this stuff, i can ask him at lunch

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Thanks Graham!

I have a few options, but my current direction (hehe) is to leave the coils the way they are now, just wire them in series to maximize voltage, and have simply two wires output (input and output of the three coils in series). That should be a pretty high-voltage (around 50V at 3500rpm idle with no load).

The max voltage setup would be to run all four coils, wire 180-degree pairs in series, then wire both pairs in series I guess? Should be around 65V at 3500rpm based on my testing.

I'll try a few things out in the next few days and see what kind of numbers I come up with.

Here's the clearest info I've found thus far, makes lots of sense and really helps quantify stator output with simple real-world testing:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189734

Ah, the pains of being a MechE when you didn't pay enough attention in your single circuits class 6+ years ago...

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

Go back to your 16v AC setup, don't use the Honda reg rec.

16v on your meter is RMS, so you're actually peaking at about 21v AC. I had a similar issue to yours when I put a regulator on the AC side of the circuit and not the DC.

Let your unregulated AC flow into the rectifier (I use a bridge rectifier off the shelf from Radioshack rated 250v 50 amps or similar ), you can also build your own with 4 rated diodes of say 10a (HPI generates about 5A DC on the lighting coil).

Then send it from the rectifier to a filter/resevoir capacitor somewhere between 1000 and 4700 uf. I'm using 2200, but when I charge my phone my DC voltage sags from 12.7 to 11.4 so I might step it up.

After the cap, send it to a regulator,noff the shelf or otherwise. I built my own, but you can find a not rectifying regulator easy too.

And then boom, stable clean DC even at idle with no battery

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Maitland Loin Jammer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Go back to your 16v AC setup, don't use the Honda

> reg rec.

>

> 16v on your meter is RMS, so you're actually

> peaking at about 21v AC. I had a similar issue to

> yours when I put a regulator on the AC side of the

> circuit and not the DC.

>

> Let your unregulated AC flow into the rectifier (I

> use a bridge rectifier off the shelf from

> Radioshack rated 250v 50 amps or similar ), you

> can also build your own with 4 rated diodes of say

> 10a (HPI generates about 5A DC on the lighting

> coil).

>

> Then send it from the rectifier to a

> filter/resevoir capacitor somewhere between 1000

> and 4700 uf. I'm using 2200, but when I charge my

> phone my DC voltage sags from 12.7 to 11.4 so I

> might step it up.

>

> After the cap, send it to a regulator,noff the

> shelf or otherwise. I built my own, but you can

> find a not rectifying regulator easy too.

>

> And then boom, stable clean DC even at idle with

> no battery

I'm running a battery, so maybe no need for a cap? I will try one regardless. What you described is pretty much my plan, run a cap with my single-phase setup and try a few configurations until I get the current/voltage balance I'm looking for. The battery is 2.3Ah, so I think I will just set up the system to be efficient at 10k rpm, which is where it lives whenever it isn't idling.

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

YAYYYYYYYY!!!!

Ran the three coils in series, in phase, to make a nice big output voltage.

I make 60ish DC volts at 3000rpm idle.

I ran a single full-wave rectifier into a 2200uF capacitor to get this result. Hardly any ripple with no load (AC measured around 0.5V at idle).

Managed to rather quickly let the magic smoke out of a 10ohm, 10W test resistor, at 15.5V measured voltage at idle. Makes sense, that's 24W.

I've got an adjustable voltage regulator coming, I should probably rewire the stator to make less voltage, though. Guess I'll switch to a parallel setup, should still make about 20V at idle but with 3x as much current. The regulator I'm getting is limited to about 40V input, so that should work out well. And I still have room for one more coil, should I run out of power.

More test results coming soon!

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Wired the coils in parallel. Much better!

I still have too much input voltage though... managed to fry a brand new voltage regulator very quickly :(

Input voltage gets up to about 45V with no load, too much for my regulator.

It was keeping a super steady 14.40V until I revved it up, then just let the voltage through unregulated.

Maybe time to rewind with thicker magnet wire and less wraps...

I've got a Hella voltage regulator from maybe a car alternator? coming in the mail tomorrow.

I'll see how that does.

If it too pops, time to re-wind.

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Hmmmm I think it blew the regulator when I closed the throttle, actually.

Wonder if the output smoothing capacitor (after the rectifier) had something to do with it?

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

I used an LM1732 I believe? It's a 1A adjustable regulator 3 pin.

you can get them at radioshack while they still open.

.

you control the output voltage via the resistor combo or you can replace one resistor with a 5k potentiometer to make it adjustable. Best to have a tiny lcd voltmeter attached.

An HPI putz out 60w and I need to heatsink the regulator. I'm trying it with a 5A version soon

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

Okay, got it figured out I think. The last few days have caused somewhat of a headache, for various reasons.

What I ended up doing was going to single-phase, using three identical coils wired in parallel, mounted 120deg apart. Floating ground. I used the TrailTech regulator/rectifier: http://www.treatland.tv/trail-tech-DC-voltage-regulator-rectifier-150w-p/trail-tech-reg-rec-7004-rr150.htm

Seemed pretty straightforward to set up -- each of the two yellow wires go to each side of my bundle of three parallel coils, then black and red are 12VDC. However, when I first tested it, I was getting some weird operation -- maybe 6VDC at idle, then dropping down to 1VDC as I revved it up. Turns out you need a battery (or something else -- more on that later) to get the regulator to do anything. So, I hooked up a battery, and hooray, perfect operation. As long as the engine was spinning fast enough (about 3000rpm on my stator), it would make wonderful 14VDC for as high as you could rev it.

But, after a ride, I noticed it was being wonky. At idle, it was mostly okay, but as time went on, idle voltage diminished and it would get all crazy at high RPM and cut out (I have an analog needle voltage meter on the bike that is susceptible to bumps, but man, that needle would move like CRAZY!). Finally, today I realized the problem. While testing the AC voltage output from the coils, I noticed that it would intermittently cut out and the multimeter would reset. I peeked in the rotating flywheel, and as I revved it up I could see lots of green light coming from inside the flywheel. Oops. Pulled the stator off, and sure enough, some wires had desoldered themselves and were flapping around making sparks.

After repairing the stator, tried again, but still got erratic operation. Finally, I said "what the hell, throw a capacitor on it." So, cap from 12V to ground, fire it up, and YAYYYYY perfect 14VDC!! I have yet to ride around much, but it seems like as long as the stator doesn't fry again, it should be OK. Pretty sure my battery is killed, I rode it around and it was making beautiful 14VDC. At the start of the ride the battery was at about 11V, but the it was very dead when I shut off the bike at the end of the ride -- 5V. I confirmed after the ride that the battery is seeing 14V from idle and above. So I'll get a new battery and maybe everything will be okay from now on.

Anyway, now I can do fun stuff:

(edited)

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Sucks that you had to add the battery.

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Mikey Antonakakis /

M-Tenn Aaron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sucks that you had to add the battery.

Not really, I had planned to all along. The unexpected bit was the capacitor. I could remove the battery and it should still work perfectly, but the battery is really helpful for momentary draw -- for example, I put a big old car horn on there. It's super loud, but draws more current than the stator can provide, so if I don't have a battery, the horn doesn't work.

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

At this power level you're right at the edge of usability of linear regulators. As you can tell from the need of a heatsink they are not very efficient.

Power wasted by a linear regulator = (V_input - V_output) * I_out

These days high efficiency switching regulators are real cheap, and they run cool to the touch.

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

> Mikey Antonakakis Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure how accurate my Harbor Freight voltage gauge is... kind of

> useless when the needle shakes +/-5V due to bumps/vibrations haha.

>

> Managed to find a nice car horn at HF, makes a nice toot toot. Thinking

> about switching to OOOGA horn, hmmm

I had an ooga horn on my car. Mechanics didnt even want to pass my inspection with it. You will be a lot happier with a loud horn. People will look at you like your driving a clown car if you have an ooga horn but normally its just that. They wont react or even try to get out of your way.

So an ooga horn is cool but make sure you wire a toggle switch between the ooga horn and your real horn.

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

You guys know you're responding to a 5 year old thread , right ? ;)

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Or better known as a 'necro bump'

Re: Peugeot 12V DC Project

Yep.

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