AEM Wideband tuning

Derrick Oyervides /

So since breaking my knee on my hobbit a month ago I've sat and researched a million things. One was how to dial in a carb with exhaust readings. I've had 4 cars dyno tuned and thought hey I could do that with my peds. So I spent 180$ on the AEM wideband. Had a short 6x1 inch pipe with bung welded for sensor. Installed a lawn mower battery to the back and ta da it works. Ghetto zip tied and taped everything cause I'm removing after the tune.

Idles between 14.5 - 15.5

1/4 throttle 14.0 - 13.7

1/2 throttle 13.5 - 13.0

3/4 throttle 13.5 - 13.0

Full blast 13.5 to 12.5

I increased by increments of 2 while upjetting. So 54,56,58,60,62,64

Once I dialed it in to what I believe is good this is what I've noticed.

The less load on the engine the more rich you will run,

So if I'm going 37 mph on flat the guage reads 13.4.... Now when I was going down a steep hill at 37 it read 12.8-12.9... And at max speed so far 42 mph it read 12.5 "" four stroking hit here" (12.5) air fuel ratio

Ok I also noticed the opposite going up hill. When the load is increased the fuel leans out. If I floor it from a stop when I reach 20 mph it reads around 13.7. Now when I hit a hill and slow down to 20 mph due to the incline the airfuel ratio will lean out to 15.6-16.0.. I'm not to worried as there isn't anything you can do. There's no way to program a single jet carb for load differences.

So over all I'm quite happy with the money spent as it was fun and it works great. I read so many negative things about doing this but I had great success.

We also tuned my friend puch e50. It would only go around 44 when we bought it.. I'm not great at reading plug chops. Plus this was my first time tuning a 24mm carb with idle jets and needle jets blah blah. So with the wide band it was easy to see what needed to be changed at different throttle percentages. Now that it's dialed in he has seen 57 mph at a full throttle ratio of 12.8 on flats. Not bad. I'm stoked. Next bike will be my hobbit that I crashed and need to repair.

I hope people get a kick outa this article and maybe this helped someone in some sort of way. Happy blasting people!!!

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Re: AEM Wideband tuning

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

Ya the AME is the shit, If you put it on top of the pipe the O2 senser will out last 4 or 5 kits.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Depending on your terrain I would try to tune for a nice mixture on those hills and be happy with running rich elsewhere. Better safe than sorry I suppose.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Very interesting, I love using tools to collect data, so helpful.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Great success!

Rad post, enjoyed reading it. Would love to run one some day.

Sorry about the knee

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

♣Slew Foot♣ /

cool beanz,

get out the e50 and try out boost chambered airboxes.

i wanna see what happens when the resounance is pushing the backwash back into the carb.

while at it, try a pug, batavus or moby somethin spinnerish?

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Would be a way to record a power increase too.

before you were stoich and now your lean after porting the exhaust, etc.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Luke Stroehlein /

Very cool article, I have one of those air fuel ratio gauges hanging around, I should try this out! Well written :)

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

If you mean a narrow band light show with no numerical readout, don't waste your time.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Road Rash Dave /

DPC Ryan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you mean a narrow band light show with no

> numerical readout, don't waste your time.

X2 on that those things are worthless and on a turbo car ..will lead to engine death

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Rob @t ATTN! Burrito /

ha dude nice extra stinger extention. i've been using them for like 4 years, work great for me but they occasionally do crap out. i prefer the analog version though, those lights are annoying as hell obnoxious light show.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Overpriced Parts /

I would love to see how a non needle 16.16 SHA or SHA carb in general does on a puch

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Don't you want to put the probe as close to the exhaust port as possible? There's a reason why primary o2's aren't behind cats/resonators/mufflers on cars. Still, very cool. Just something for you to think about in getting more accurate readings.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Moby Express /

It would be less accurate with all the fuel spewing back and forth from the pipe.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Derrick Oyervides /

Yeah I thought about running a boost bottle now that it's tuned to see if the airfuel ratios change and record where they help or hurt. This wideband would definitely see a change if there is any. I'm planning on removing the oil feed off my tomos soon and remixing my gas. So I can use the port on the intake for the boost bottle. Also I might have to slightly adjust the tune because not real sure the ratio of oil from the pump versus premixing. I know this thing works great and makes tuning the carb way easier. Especially at quarter and half throttle for selection of the pilot jet. Numbers read 14-17 you instantly know you need a larger pilot. Numbers read 12.5 -9.0 you know you need to get a smaller pilot jet. Also it's cool to see the performance gains.

I took the 5 mesh screens out of the stock 14.12 delleroto carb on my tomos and it wouldn't even read on the guage it was peaked out lean. If I floored it it would cut off. So I slowly up jetted and got it dialed in perfect. Carb has a nice deep louder sound now which is cool haha. Really opened up my tomos as we'll for a stock 50cc with just a filter and exhaust. Has seen 42 mph downhill and about 36-40 on flats. Not bad seeing how my hobbits best all modded out would only hit 35 on flats and take forever to get there. Hobbit now has a kit and blasts (the one I wrecked) haha I'm gonna hook the wide band to it once I get a dio intake and v force reeds with a 21mm carb. Till next time

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

I've been thinking about jumping down the wide band hole, but I'm concerned that the header pivot on my pipe (it's a Motobecane) would throw off the readings and possibly even damage the sensor. It's basically a gigantic air leak, after all. Have you played around with a variated Frenchy yet?

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

i've played with narrow band sensors, they are kinda like a plug chop, nobody is spoon feeding you a nice number, but if you are paying attention to your engine and already 95% tuned, you can use them to get the last 5%.

this site has some good info:

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/basics.htm

you can see how the reading 'drops out' at a lean condition, it also drops out if its too cold, but usually you can feel the difference.

i run mine with a DMM but i've been wanting to buy an old school analog gauge so i can get a feeling for the 'trend' rather than just scribbledy digital nonsense readings.

no idea how it would work on a moped, this has been on my truck....

eventually i'd like to get a UEGO, but right now its not in the budget.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

I had a uego on two of my cars and it was just plain great. After messing with innovate guages that need a recalibration every 2 days I won't touch any other. You can get an analog controller gauge too. I avoided it for fear of lag but a friend of mine put one in his track miata and it is incredibly responsive. I like to see the minute changes for fear it will make the difference but the analog does work for glancing to be sure things are still where they should be.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Moby Express Wrote:

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> It would be less accurate with all the fuel

> spewing back and forth from the pipe.

It's not just fuel there...it's air and fuel...and if it's constantly passing over the sensor then technically the reading will be more accurate. The closer the sensor is to the exhaust port (four and two strokes), the more accurate it is. You do not want the exhaust gasses to pass through any media (i.e. cat converter, Biturbo silencer, etc.) before reaching the sensor because the reading will be filtered aka inaccurate. Think about it for a second...it's not too hard to believe or understand! The sensor will also be hotter, which may help prevent fouling, whereas the much cooler gas at the end of the silencer will leave a nice goopy deposit (think the end of your moped's tailpipe).

The only downfall that I can think of is putting the sensor in the header somewhere that doesn't negatively impact flow.

I just wanted to bring this up to see if the OP has considered this at all.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Moby Express /

Derek Vanasse Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Moby Express Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It would be less accurate with all the fuel

> > spewing back and forth from the pipe.

>

>

> It's not just fuel there...it's air and fuel...and

> if it's constantly passing over the sensor then

> technically the reading will be more accurate.

> The closer the sensor is to the exhaust port (four

> and two strokes), the more accurate it is. You do

> not want the exhaust gasses to pass through any

> media (i.e. cat converter, Biturbo silencer, etc.)

> before reaching the sensor because the reading

> will be filtered aka inaccurate. Think about it

> for a second...it's not too hard to believe or

> understand! The sensor will also be hotter, which

> may help prevent fouling, whereas the much cooler

> gas at the end of the silencer will leave a nice

> goopy deposit (think the end of your moped's

> tailpipe).

>

> The only downfall that I can think of is putting

> the sensor in the header somewhere that doesn't

> negatively impact flow.

>

> I just wanted to bring this up to see if the OP

> has considered this at all.

I would imagine the air/fuel that makes it into the pipe and then back into the cylinder would skew the reading.

I fully understand widebands on cars and have ran them for over 10 years.

90% of dyno tunes on cars are read at the tailpipe. It delays the reading a little but you can work around it.

As you pointed out there really isn't any good easy way to mount in the header without impacting flow.

AEM gauges are great. Innovate not so much. Last night I fixed the broken power input on my LM-1 wideband. I hope to add to the thread soon with my own findings.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

You have to imagine that after the chamber would be a cumulative reading of all gasses burned in the chamber after they have been recycled and shuffled around in the pipe/header. They aren't going anywhere else. That should be the most consistent reading you will achieve. Hopefully it is still hot enough there to prevent deposits. A reading in the chamber or farther down in the header would likely be too turbulent to get a well defined number on I suspect.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Derek Vanasse Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't you want to put the probe as close to the

> exhaust port as possible? There's a reason why

> primary o2's aren't behind

> cats/resonators/mufflers on cars. Still, very

> cool. Just something for you to think about in

> getting more accurate readings.

They aren't behind cats because cats burn fuel.. And there is a narrow band behind all new cars to be sure that it is doing it's job of reducing hydrocarbon output. Mufflers technically don't impact readings.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

the big thing with the location is heat, the UEGO is a self-heated sensor, whereas most of the narrow bands don't have a heater element in them, so you have to get them close enough to the port to get them up to 700 degrees and keep them there.

i'm not sure what the self-heated UEGO runs at but i bet it would keep the goop burned off, even just being hotter than the exhaust gas would keep oil deposits from condensing and should keep it happy

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

DPC Ryan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Derek Vanasse Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Don't you want to put the probe as close to the

> > exhaust port as possible? There's a reason why

> > primary o2's aren't behind

> > cats/resonators/mufflers on cars. Still, very

> > cool. Just something for you to think about in

> > getting more accurate readings.

>

>

> They aren't behind cats because cats burn fuel..

> And there is a narrow band behind all new cars to

> be sure that it is doing it's job of reducing

> hydrocarbon output. Mufflers technically don't

> impact readings.

Hence why I said primary o2...

So if you had 2 pipes and 2 sensors, 1 before the muffler and one after the muffler - you think the readings would be exactly the same? Exactly? As in the muffler packing will not absorb any of the exhaust gases aka not doing what it's designed to do? While you may have a point in that readings aren't affected THAT much, that probably only stands 'true' on cat-less four stroke motors.

I'm not trying to be a pain here haha, just pointing out the obvious that readings are more accurate closer to the motor. The OP's system works and is arguably better than nothing, and cool, but the accuracy of the readings shouldn't hold their weight in gold (just like CHTs), especially over time.

OP - I love what you've done. Have you considered welding a bung closer to the engine or is the purpose of this just a neat experiment?

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Ryan - you mention turbulence and that makes sense, but I've seen factory turbo cars that have an o2 more or less immediately after the turbo. That is an EXTREMELY turbulent area!

I like this thread. Maybe eventually the norm will be to run EGT and o2 probes...probably not haha but hey

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Actually with the turbo spinning at dozens of thousands of RPM it is a fairly laminar flow. Turbulence that I referred to had to do with pulsing and the possibility of fuel to actually move back toward the source and combine with fresh vapor or air, skewing readings.

What Graham mentions about narrow band heat is absolutely true. Before I got my wideband into my conquest I ran the narrowband for closed loop fuel efficiency. The car had a 2.5" catless downpipe and straight piping all the way back. Even with the O2 sensor just 3" from the turbine outlet it took about 10 minutes of steady driving to get it hot enough to produce a voltage that could be read (I had an led tapped into the diag plug to show). If I pulled up to a light or cruised below 30mph for long enough it would actually cool DOWN too much and drop out of closed loop. Just another excuse for a downshift and 20-60 rip :P

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

I think the reversion pulse from intake gasses burping in and out of the pipe will screw up your sensor, its not reading oxygen, that's a common misconception, they actually measure CO which occurs as the combustion product of a too-rich mixture.

so, the unburnt fuel/air mixture may not screw it up, as it doesn't contain much CO, but it may skew it lean, or another chemical reaction may occur, i'm not that good at the chemistry angle.

The idea that the muffler will somehow change the chemical composition of the gasses is false, the muffler won't absorb significant amounts of CO.. where would it go? it has to come out somewhere eventually, and it isn't going to condense or otherwise come out of suspension.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

like i said, bell has a blurb about it in his book.. i think.. i don't have a copy handy.

if i'm remembering correct, he says put it in the middle of the belly.

those dudes that turbo'd that RS125 aprilla probably know what they are doing, scope that vid, cant remember where they put it.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Derrick Oyervides /

I've thought about getting a bung welded closer to the cylinder. From seeing the folks at AEM install a wideband on a ruckus they recommend to install 11 to 18 inches from the exhaust port. I'm not sure how much the readings will change. Plus I didn't want to have an ugly plug in my minty biTurbo or my weak-ends exhaust.

Re: AEM Wideband tuning

Rob @t ATTN! Burrito /

i've done from as close as 10" back from the header to the center of the belly. all with consistent readings that have not resulted in engine failure/siezures. mounting gets hairy sometimes, since vertical space on the pipe 12-18" back can be non existant on many mopeds/pipes. my thoughts were that almost anywhere is fine, too close to the ex port and you will have scavenge charge passing by the sensor possibly resulting with a false lean reading, or too close to the tip of the stinger might also have the same effect if the pipe is pulling in ambient air. never thought about putting two different ones on one pipe to check if the readings are different. might have a crapper pipe around here to test it though, good idea. one thing i've found is that you definitely have to seal up the threads on your bung plug or they'll rattle out when the pipe heats up.

a 3 point check on the same pipe/engine would be a good test, curious to the limits of good readings now. i'm guessing the hope is that all three would be the same, and that it truly didn't matter where it was. ha and yeah until a complete system costs less than ~4 more mopeds and piles of performance parts i dont think we'll see too many self powered o2 controlled efi setups. plug chops and hills as dynos are much cheaper... fun stuff though!

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