pietcard 2041 and HAL sender / sensor vs sensorless CDI Boxes

CDI guru's, please help me understand..

So, from my understanding of HAL sensor trigger vs ignition coil trigger CDI and how each can be wired, and (minimal) understanding of how each type of system actually works, I did not think the two could be interchanged, but the pietcard 2041 looks like it has been used on both.

Judging from the wire colors and diagrams, it's a sensor-less type four wire box just like the 2013 that comes with the conversion kits, and the kinetic cdi; box, one wire to each side of the internal coil , one to ground, and one to the ht coil, in fact nash says he used it on one of the conversion kits in the comments.

It's also the box that comes with the e50 adventure pack...which is a hal triggered unit. According to the instructions, and the 2041 comments, it sounds to me like you can just wire the negative coil wire to the hal sender in stead and it works. So the sensorless boxes can pick up the trigger signal from either?

In the case of no hal sender, my understanding is the internal coil is insulated from ground, so the box gets it's power and signal through that circuit, and the ground is used for the spark circuit only.

I'm not sure about CDI with a HAL sender, the ht circuit must be the same, but i'm not sure how the stator is wired, if the coil and hal are on the same circuit that would make sense for power and signal also, or does it use the ground for the power and/or signal circuits, shared with the spark circuit like the 2002 (three wire, coil-ground-htcoil)

This brings me to another question, is this true in reverse? can hal-triger boxes be used without a sender by wiring the hal sender wire to the other side of the internal coil in stead? Did i just miss that they work the same and the signal just comes from a different place (dir haven't been around for a while). If so, this opens up a world of possibilities and pretty much any box can be wired to any CDI.

I guess it comes down to how each type works,

2041: coil-coil-ground-htcoil or sensor-coil-ground-htcoil

https://www.treatland.tv/pietcard-CDI-ignition-box-2041-p/pietcard-cdi-box-2041.htm

conversion kit with nash comment:

https://www.treatland.tv/pietcard-CDI-motoplat-04-yellow-clockwise-p/pietcard-cdi-04.htm

adventure pack:

https://www.treatland.tv/puch-e50-CDI-complete-adventure-pack-V2-p/puch-e50-cdi-v2.htm

TL;DR: are sensor/sensorless cdi boxes interchangeable? can anyone provide me with a diagram of puch or other hal sensor type cdi stator wiring please (CDaI, how doz they woik? XD)

Thanks,

~M

Re: pietcard 2041 and HAL sender / sensor vs sensorless CDI Boxes

Maciek Dub /

This guy says no (in his FAQ) because a HAL sender is required: http://dragonfly75.com/motorbike/CDI2.html, and he seems to know what he is talking about. At least he has recreated and modified a 200cc two stroke sensorless cdi with variable curve, and to work on a chineese bike engine. Maybe he's just trying to sell more of em. I've actually been considering contacting him about modifying it for mopeds, would have to test for the right size capacitor, and adjust the curve a little, but it sounds like it would be a great custom, serviceable, US made option, at least for kinetic and pietcard CDI conversion users.

Re: pietcard 2041 and HAL sender / sensor vs sensorless CDI Boxes

Maciek Dub /

well, i was up too late again, and as usual answered one of my own questions, if the ignition coil and hal are both grounded that makes more sense, but I still don't understand how the same box can work with the apparently sender-less conversion kit, either those coils are grounded to the case and have hal sender coils built in that are not on any schematics or diagrams (no grounds on the ignition coil), or the same boxes can work with coil and hal or just coil.

Anyone have any dead piecard conversion kit coils, or kinetic for that matter, to peel the wrap and take a peek inside?

Re: pietcard 2041 and HAL sender / sensor vs sensorless CDI Boxes

Maciek Dub /

I finally found the treats blog on them, which includes some diagrams, which seem to confirm my original understanding, that the sensorless boxes use the ac negative switch as the trigger, while the hal sensors use a pulse from the hal sender.

it does look like the sensorless cdi unit coils are grounded, in fact, the diagram is just the basic three wires, coil-ground-htcoil like the 2002, so then, what is the extra gray signal wire for? is it just wired to the grounded side of the sensorless coil as another ground? Is it also grounded through the whole coil itself, like the power wire, but form the other end, so the charge coil also acts as the hal sender on the negative pulse. seems like the same boxes can use either the pulse from the coil or the pulse from the hal sender as a trigger..?

http://treatsflash.wordpress.com/category/cdi-technologies/

Re: pietcard 2041 and HAL sender / sensor vs sensorless CDI Boxes

The proper term is HALL EFFECT SENSOR (not HAL sensor or hal sender).

Both types work fundamentally the same way: when the target pass the trigger it tells the CDI control to fire the spark. You can also make an adaptor so you can use a point system as a trigger to tell a CDI box to fire.

Non curved CDI boxes get the command to shoot and then they fire, curved CDI boxes get the command to shoot and have programming to figure how long since the previous command which determines when to shoot this time.

Always make sure you have the index point of any CDI figured out - that is where trigger and target are aligned - which is where it will tell the CDI to shoot. On non-curved CDIs this will be where it will fire BTDC. On curved CDIs this will be your maximum advance BTDC you want to risk on your motor.

Re: pietcard 2041 and HAL sender / sensor vs sensorless CDI Boxes

Maciek Dub /

Thanks Rebel, I understand most of that; wiring, trigger basics, timing, other than bein lazy with the hall, and the points thing rings a bell, i remember reading about that now). May not have made much sense cause i was up too late.

I guess the main thing I needed to know is that the hal signal pulse (there i go doing it again) is recognized the same as the negative pulse from the coil in a sensorless system, I still want to understand how it actually works electrically, though.

It seems in the hall case, the power and signal circuits are separate, each using the ground to complete the circuit, coil sends charge pulse, hal sends trigger pulse, makes perfect sense.

What I don't understand is how the same box can work with the same two wires on both ends of the coil, I thought it just used them for the coil power and signal circuit, which makes sense, positive pulse charges, negative pulse triggers, but that does not make sense when you consider how the same box works with the hal sender, using the ground.

So, is the sensorless coil, or one of it's two wires, grounded on one side to complete the power and signal circuit with the ground in stead of the other side wire? Is it grounded on both? From my understanding, and I'm obviously no electrical engineer, I don't see how it works unless It's it a dual coil grounded on the other side of each wire, sending a charge pulse with one and the trigger with the other, both completing their circuits through ground?

I'm sure someone can enlighten me!

peace

~M

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