new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwards

Code Name: BLAST! /

okay, so I completely rebuilt my bottom end on my Pinto, new primary gear, new stuffed crank, new seals, new bearings, new clips ... before this, my primary gear drive had some chipped teeth and would make this noise ONLY when I pushed the bike backwards. it is a brand new gear drive, but I am getting an almost identical sound when I push the bike backwards after installing all of this new stuff. we were real careful about everything ... I don't get it ...

anyway, I am gonna take off the clutch cover, clutch, and bell housing and have a look see tomorrow (it's late now). just thought I would ask if there is anything else I should be aware of? thanks ...

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

try pushing it backwards with the drive chain removed (leave the pedal chain on) and see if it still makes the noise.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST /

tim,

what pedal chain?

lol ... yeah, I haven't had a pedal chain almost since I've had this bike.

i'm getting off work soon. hopefully I will be able to pull the clutch cover and bell housing and have a look see and then report back.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

what kind of noise

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

clankity clanklity .... doesn't do it going forward ... clearly coming from the bottom end

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

mine did that!

it was my rear spocket

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

clutch dude.........

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

ding ding ding ... we have a winner ... andrew was right. sumthin up with the clutch. bell housing is moving when it shouldn't be. shards from the housing. grrr ... trying to find the piston stop so I can pull that shit and find out what is up. at least it's not the primary gear ...

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

) Cupermcnewbster ( /

not shimmed right...

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

yeppers, zack. clip came loose for some reason. putting it all back together right now. gear looks fine. hopefully I can finally ride again today (been 7 weeks and three days now since I've been able to ride ... you know, same old story: bike blew up, got hit by a car, working all the time, yadda yadda yadda).

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

balls .... I put it all back together and ... started right up, but sure enough, same result. something is causing the snap ring to come loose. what?

what's the deal with the crank snap rings, anyway. I decided to replace mine cause they seemed worn. but I didn't find any metric sizes. I matched it up as best I could. my next test is to find the original (at Paul's house in a box with dremel stuff) snap ring and put that one back on. is it just the ring? cause I swear it was on there tight as hell and not moving.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

spacing is a little off on those dmp stuffed cranks. you NEED a metric circlip dood!

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Can you describe the ruckus...?

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

okay, Zach, thanks (I was worried about that) ... do you know if Center has them?

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

I had the same problem with that crank and the clutch circlip, good think the crank unstuffed itself and slimed my top end before it could eat my gears up. do yourself a favor and unstuff that crank, we managed to do it on just a 50 kit with a 14mm carb. We didnt even blow the kit, all the stuffing came out and gummed up the piston and cylinder and blocked the transfers.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

i was going to say go to center, or steal one off the drive sprocket or someting, i may have a spare from another engine

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

well, this is what has happened since I posted last.

I put it all together about three times and it was snug and tight (seemingly) and each time the same result. the bike started fine and ran and all, just the bell would come loose. I tried to use the replacement clips I bought, which someone else is running sucessfully in an e-50 now (with the exact same crank) and ... no dice. I used the old clips, no dice. Center, btw, does not have metric circlips. I honestly think they don't exist here.

anyway, today I finally tried a clip that was way too small. it should not have worked, but I tested it (and all the other clips) by putting it on and pulling on it to see if it would come loose. the smaller one would not come out no matter how hard I tugged. now, I had checked to make sure the clutch bell was spinning freely (each time I did this) and this time it seemed ... hard. I didn't think much of it and put everything back together and ... something is locked up. the rear wheel doesn't wanna move much and I am not getting free spinning anything. I can still push it, but it's .. hard ... WTF?! I am so over this shit. (to clarify, it does this with the clutch out ... it's not the clutch locking it up).

I am moving and have spent the past two days trying to deal with this, so ... I gotta stop for awhile ... it has been so nice out too. and all I wanna do is ride!

Brett. I drove by you in my red plumbing van the other day. you were blasting down Lincoln ... looked like so much fun!

James: Treats told me that I shouldn't worry about the stuffing coming out. I wanted to buy the unstuffed, but it was out of stock.

I guess I am gonna have to open the case up and check it out ... not sure what else to do now. Bah!

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

just to add to this. when I first took off the clutch cover, I checked and the bell was spinning freely. I don't know why shit is locked up now. it seems weird to me that tugging on a circlip/snap ring (whatever you wanna call em) would cause this and there was nothing else I did.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

read the manual about shimming!! does the circlip fit over the clutch side bearing. i think with the unstuffed it doesn't quite go on, so you need to get the special bearing, or sand the circlip or shim it!! read, read, read!!

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

it's not the circlip over the bearing. And I have the correct bearing for the unstuffed crank. That clip and the bearings are fine. That's not the problem.

I've read the Wiki on rebuilding an e-50. There's nothing about the clips or shimming. And, in any event, that doesn't seem to be the actual problem at this point.

What manual are you referring to that I should read?

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

I hit the magento with my hand a couple of times. that knocked it loose. not locked up anymore. sheesh ... it had to have been from the tugging on the clip.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

) Cupermcnewbster ( /

puch factory service manual. I know its on mopedriders, and elsewhere.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

rob ,

bring that over to my house and we'll fix it up, you probably have to little space in the entire transmission area, and everythings binding up, you probably need thinner shims, if that makes sense, i have a spare set of shims, and probably a stock circlip we could steal off another engine, or something,

the manual goes through an entire process for measuring the end float, but i normally just eyeball it, as long as the shit spins and isnt tight, your usually good to go, i've put together transmissions that were normally fine and spinning freely on the stock crank, but were totally binding up on an aftermarket crank, in which case you need a smaller set of shims

we could do it tonight, or maybe on monday evening, call me 207-409-9865

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

also?

what type of primary gear did you replace it with? there are some models with the teeth going in the opposite direction, i doubt you could even get that shit fit together, but its probably something to double check

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Take him up on that Rob.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

unstuffed stuffed crank

left side of the crank is now unstuffed and has a sweet hot spot at the connecting rod

some of the stuffing that came out of the transfer

ring is all bound up by the stuffing, burned it off and the ring wasnt broken, piston was pretty worthless though

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

If the clutch bell spins freely then the shims probably aren't the problem, but I will say that I had this same "doesn't fit right" problem with the stuffed crank. My stock shims were too fat, so I had to get a thinner shim. This was before treats had them, so I spent forever filing down a washer. (I do not recommend this, BTW). Also, I had unstuffed the crank, but I think it would have come unstuffed when it seized if I hadn't -- the crank was obviously heat-damaged when I took everything apart. I got a new one and I'm rebuilding, but I'm going to unstuff it again. It sucked to seize, but at least I didn't have to peel/pick nasty melted plastic crap out of my engine too. Or that's the current theory, anyhow.

For shimming procedure (for anyone who wants to see), it's in the service manual on pages 44-46.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

Code Name: BLAST! /

THANK YOU BRETT!!

None of the various shims worked with my new crank (Bret had several different sizes). We finally had to use a different stock clutch bell and a different, slightly smaller, shim.

Nothing was being put together wrong, it was just that Puch made so many different sized shims for different stock set ups that some people are lucky and can get things to work with their stock set ups (everyone else I knew before Brett stepped in) and some people (like me, like him and others) are not so lucky and have to work harder to make it work.

Man, it was so nice to ride with Brett and Yancey tonight! It has been a long time. The smell of Motul ... mmmm nothing like it !!

Thanks for the info, Linda. I didn't read it until now, however, as I was moving and then working on this. My situation was especially weird. It spun freely with the stock shim and various clips, but when we put on a smaller shim, it would NOT spin freely. Go fucking figure? This is why we had to use a different clutch bell. Really, just retarded and not something I would have thought would be the case. I would still be stymied if it wasn't for Brett's help!! and horribly depressed and taking it all personally, which is equally retarded ...

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

) Cupermcnewbster ( /

niow you can come ride out here. shimming is important, more so if everything is too tight.

Re: new e50 bottom end and ... noise going backwar

You can't fit that together. Clutch bell won't go on if the teeth are a mismatch.

And yeah, shimming can be a bitch on aftermarket cranks.

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