75ccs, exact same performance as stock

Cleats Onionpockets /

Now here's the thing. I had been running my puch e50 with a stock setup for awhile. I had shaved the head, trimmed the piston skirt, and was using a 14mm bing with a hollowed out stock airbox. The stock exhaust pipe had been de-restricted as well. I was hitting 29-32 pretty consistently with 16x40 gearing.

Then, I put on my old airsal kit that I had seized last year. I had since ordered a new ring for it, and decided to give it a go. Compression was almost nil, and it was no better than stock off the line, but around 20mph it would wake the hell up and scream up to about 36. I'm talking tugging the handlebars almost out of my hands screaming too.

However, it's the off the line that I want. So I ordered a vintage 75cc kit. It looks like an old athena kit, but I'll be asking the seller tomorrow to be sure. It's definitely aluminum with a chrome or nikasil lining. Only one piston ring, and bigger ports all around than the airsal had.

I put that on my bike, gave it the whole heat cycle and break in procedure, and opened it up for the first time tonight. Dissapointment.

The thing does pull a _tiny_ bit better than my stock (stock!) setup, but it doesn't even pull as hard as the airsal with next to no compression. This thing has tons of it though. The fins resonate something fierce too. It will pull slightly better than stock up to 31, and that's it. It will not go past it. I'm using the same jetting setup as I had used on the 70cc airsal, and even tried going to the next size up with no improvement. Just like the airsal did, it revs wicked fast, but even the ruined airsal outperforms it.

I must be doing something wrong. I've tried adjusting the timing, but all that did was make it ping and knock. I''ve yet to downjet, because I need to get some more plugs to get a look at the exact standing of rich to lean balance.

Has anyone else had this happen? If so, what advise do you have?

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

Post after you have tried different jets

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

Don't be afraid to jet lower than you would expect. A lot of these older kits are wierd.

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

polini

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

Cleats Onionpockets /

fuck a polini.

Once I get this up and running smoothly I plan to rock it old school

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

Cleats Onionpockets /

Well, putting a jet two sizes down helped a bit, I went from a 78 to a 74 and it sped the thing up. i think I need a 76 though, since it's still a bit boggy in the four-stroke variety. The kit brought the cruising speed up to around 36, which is not bad I guess when you consider that it's running a 14mm carb with the stock airbox and a stock pipe.

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

you really need a better carb and pipe. it is not getting enough total gas /air vapors and it is running too rich right now. Basically low quantity of rich gas vapors. Your engine is coughing on the gas but then when you get to 20 or so the engine catches up with the mixture and runs super lean, thus the huge increase in power. This happens a lot with four stroking. You could down jet but i have a feeling that your overly rich mixture is the only thing preventing that kit from seizing up (though is WILL seize again if you keep it at full throttle runs with that small of a carb). it siezed once with that same carb pipe setup. Downjetting will only temporarily help you off the line, but expect another seize. Go at least with a 16mm carb jetted in the 80s or 90's at least and a much better pipe. Kits are not meant for stock carb/pipes. you change one thing you have to change everthing else. Good luck.

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

As far as I know, 4 stroking means you are running rich.

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

two kinds of four-stroking: running too rich and running to lean

Re: 75ccs, exact same performance as stock

Which kit is this?

Mark Ryan, pay attention

Cleats Onionpockets /

Listen mark, I seized last time with my airsal. Not this kit.

Last time I was running a 17mm bing with a 18mm intake. I had a Techno boss expansion pipe. I had an 88 jet. The reason I seized my AIRSAL kit was because I faced the intake of the carb forward (it was the widemouth style) and too much air got forced into it once I got up to speed during my plug chop run. (note, I had only just gotten it up and running, and it felt fine before I took it out to determine whether it was still too lean or not)

After that, I went back to stock. I tweaked the stock setup and got it to hold 32 with 16x40 gearing running a 62 jet and the stock airbox with the restrictive filter element on it. Now, this was originally an engine that topped out at 19-21mph. I took that same engine and made it do 32. I put the stock pipe back on after getting it to hold 32, and guess what? It still would get up to 32, and it increased my low end. It wouldn't accelerate quite as quickly once it got past 20 or so, but that's unimportant.

I bought a 14mm carb for the stock setup as well.

As I said earlier, with everything else stock, the airsal would go 35. I am now running 38-40 on the stock carb and pipe. If I lock it up, feel free to tell me "i told you so". But I prefer to keep things looking stock. An expansion pipe will kill my low end, and when you weigh 265 like I do, low end is all-important when dealing with idiots in traffic. I'd love a 15mm bing (not that I believe it's worth it) but I don't have 100 dollars to spend on it and the extra jets I would need.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

Cleats Onionpockets /

Also, I have all those old "performance" parts sitting in a shelf, waiting to be used. If I need them, I'll use them. But I'm going to see how far I can take the stock pipe and 14mm carb before I need them.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

i am paying attention. you just never mentioned you siezed your airsal with all those performance parts. If I were you I would still use the better carb and pipe. I had bad low end on my bat with a biturbo and 15 dellorto, but i got a longer header and got my low end back minus a few mph. tops at 33 solid all around. I can understand you wanting to keep it stock but if that is your attitude you should keep everything stock. you just cant slap a kit on a bike and thats it. anyone who runs a kit will tell you once you start messing with one thing you have to mess with everything.

If I were you I would mill the head a LOT to raise torque a little, run without the base gasket and add an extra washer to the plug to prevent the plug from hitting the piston (and gear for better torque which you are doing). All that will aid in you low end and are free. Anyway, i didn't mean any ill will. Good luck with your setup, id be interested to know what happens.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

Cleats Onionpockets /

Sorry for snapping yesterday, I guess I was a bit tetchy about the bike because it had been giving me trouble. I'm an odd cookie in that I want it to look dead stock, but still cruise at a higher speed. A 15mm carb would certainly help, but then I still have the restriction of the stock exhaust. Even so, that has been opened up a bit to increase flow. I had an expansion exhaust, and it just looked goofy. Almost as if it was trying desperately to look fast, and failing miserably.

(I am a fan of sleepers)

Before the expansion exhaust had been invented, people were still getting decent performance out of their 2 cycle bikes. That's what I aim to achieve. I don't want an all out screamer, just something that will have a little more grunt than it does right now.

Again, sorry for the snide post yesterday. I've had my grapefruit juice today and am much more placid.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

That stock pipe is killing all the possibilty for power.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

Cleats Onionpockets /

It holds a steady 39 right now. That's an ideal cruising speed for me, especially when all I wanted was a little more grunt at the stop lights. Low end power. Do you know of an expansion pipe that will add that Brendan?

The alternative is to gear it lower and just let the motor wind up uber high to get to the same speed. A pipe would certainly help with that. However, that puts more strain on the motor, and puts demands on the carburetor that my 14mm will most likely not keep up with.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

there are also clutch modifications to help acceleration with CVT clutches by removing ball bearings, but i dont know the clutch you have.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

Cleats Onionpockets /

About all you can do with the centrifugal two shoe clutch that I have is to tighten the springs so it engages at a higher rpm, which I have done. It produced a noticeable increase in acceleration as the engine is allowed to wind up higher before the clutch grabs.

Re: Mark Ryan, pay attention

Cleats Onionpockets /

Ok, I finally decided to take your advice mark. I yanked the stock exhaust on a lark and put on the enormous header pipe from a biturbo Harold sent me (a freaking huge one I might add...) I upjetted two sizes, and backed the gearing from 17x40 down to 16x40. I also put on a higher flow air filter.

Holy shit.

The thing is loud as hell (thank you bare header) and screams up to about 40-42 and wants more. As soon as I find a decent expansion pipe to put on (unless I use the old boss pipe) I'm sure it will pull 45mph. It feels so much like it wants to go there, but the jetting is just not quite right yet.

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