Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

> Graham Motzing wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Mike, we gotta talk Ryan into making a couple straightened out leovince

> pipes. I think it could be the ultimate on this setup. I have a

> leovince circuit but it's been hacked up to fit on a za50 and I can't

> justify rebuilding a 3rd spare puch motor for bikes I don't even own,

> haha.

>

> I'm curious to hear how it compares to the malossi, I used to install a

> lot of them for customer jobs but they are too $$ for my personal bikes

> and this kit has kinda replaced it for me. I love the malossi, but once

> again my love is based on the fact that I know I can slap one on and

> have the bike running good in like 15 minutes.

>

> Actually now that I think of it, I used to do a lot of malossi/bullet,

> probably similar to what Adam is running, crusher mids then just keeps

> pulling forever on the top end.

>

> If you do go with the GP, it works a lot better if you cut 2-3" out of

> the header, reposition that shim/spacer tube in there, and reweld it so

> it's bolted into the rearmost hole in the mounting tab.

for literally $55 you cannot go wrong with a Tecno Bullet pipe. the extra $150 you save on the cranks pipe can be a CDI with a timing curve or a set of Claw shoes or a stuffed crank and new high rpm bearings.

You guys are really gonna make me throw a 15t front sprocket on there and see how high I can get this stupid engine to rev out, are you?

also, you got specs on this leo vince? you gonna have him do an extra long stinger like most circuit pipes, or will you adjust the ID of the stinger and the length accordingly?

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

> Mike Boyd wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

>

> shit i installed it yesterday without taking pics, but i swear on my

> beloved chihuahua mutt that it has no decomp. I was perplexed because

> after reading up on this kit I had plugging the hole on my mental to do

> list.

>

> I will say that the casting was pretty decent and the ports only needed

> a little chamfering with those rifflers you recommended, which were way

> nicer to use than the small flat files I had previously been using. The

> ring gaps were close enough to correct too, maybe a hair wide on one.

>

> Instead of shaving down the exhaust flange I decided to just do the

> extra work and carefully open up the fins around the exhaust port on the

> cylinder so whoever owns this next can have a bit more freedom to try

> different pipes.

>

> Current setup is a bit wonky because of the nature of this "parts bin"

> build, and I just got it put together last night so haven't had a chance

> to run/tune:

>

> - kokusan CDI ignition (static timing box)

>

> - stock 2 shoe clutch w/ blue springs (currently at 20lbs)

>

> - 14 bing + intake (24 slide (modded), 2.17 atomizer, 72 jet, 2 groove

> needle, MLM filter) to start with

>

> - biturbo(!) (but i have a proma GP to throw on it)

>

> - 16 x 45 gearing

where'd you buy it from?

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Treats!

ScreenShot2022-04-18at12.32.13PM.png

(edited)

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

did you get any port timing numbers off the cylinder?

I'm so intrigued! I might just have to say fuck it and buy one for the display case at the shop to compare to what I've been running.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Someone in the 'epic Vespa thread' posted this, I was gonna compare it to the real one hanging up in my shop.

The og leovince is amazing, it's like a proma but just gobs of useable power everywhere. I've run it on stock ported, polinis, mk65, it always runs way harder than it ought to. Super high quality. If they still made them I would have them on everything. It's like all the best parts of a proma and all the best parts of a estoril. I think it would be killer on this setup. (edited)

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

> Graham Motzing wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/file.php?7,file=257122

>

> Someone in the 'epic Vespa thread' posted this, I was gonna compare it

> to the real one hanging up in my shop.

>

> The og leovince is amazing, it's like a proma but just gobs of useable

> power everywhere. I've run it on stock ported, polinis, mk65, it always

> runs way harder than it ought to. Super high quality. If they still made

> them I would have them on everything. It's like all the best parts of a

> proma and all the best parts of a estoril. I think it would be killer on

> this setup.

that's unreal, if correct that pipe has like a 35in tuned length. that is seriously so long it's insane.

I did run a circuit pipe on a "corrected" Athena AJH once with a 19phbg. i ran 19x40 gearing on 16x2.25" tires and it was a BLAST. honestly that was like 8 years ago or more at this point.

Now i like to rev :)

good to know that a calibratta has about a ~27.5in tuned length. makes sense and corroborates some of my previous vespa experiences.

kinda weird they include the stinger length on those values as well for some pipes but not for others.

you gotta do the math yourself and cut the back cone in half to get the actual tuned length, but still very cool and fun.

if you can get a tuned length off the pipe you have, please do it graham!

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

It's crazy isn't it? With the circuit pipes I think it's all very subjective, they don't behave the same as a straight pipe if you use the center line of the bend, my guess is that the compression wave kinda 'cuts the corner' so you should really measure the fat sections closer to the 2/3 line and the skinny parts close to the centerline, if that makes sense. If the person who made that chart measured the center line it would be longer than what is actually happening in the pipe.

That's just like, my guess, the leovince has a super crazy shape based on Fibonacci sequence, some crazy shit from Leonardo's notebooks, the crest of the knights templar and the whatnot.

The calibratta is another one that's just amazing, I've never owned one but I got to tune one on a Vespa motor for somebody else once and they are just wicked, black majik pipe for sure, that one. I would like to try them on all kinds of other stuff, av10 50cc I'm thinking. I am gonna get one for my 38mm Athena Vespa build eventually but my SI is stranded on the other side of the country :(

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

I just asked Calder at treats and he confirmed that they asked the supplier for the decomp to stop being drilled in these cylinders! Tight!

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

I feel like the compression wave does not cut the corners like you would think, rather gets a small boost from how the wave rolls around the bend.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

Treats in. Any reason not to run a stock 38mm hi torque head with this kit? Use head gasket, correct? Ok to turn on side to match fins? No decomp hole on new 65s now. Its my only option at the moment. I’ve run the lo torque stock alu head and the puchshop 44mm hi torque heads just fine.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

> roots to wings wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Treats in. Any reason not to run a stock 38mm hi torque head with this

> kit? Use head gasket, correct? Ok to turn on side to match fins? No

> decomp hole on new 65s now. Its my only option at the moment. I’ve run

> the lo torque stock alu head and the puchshop 44mm hi torque heads just

> fine.

It should be ok, but definitely not ideal.

not everything has to always be ideal either. things will run in less then ideal conditions.

you can turn the head too so it'll match the fins if you really want to. it'll seal just fine without the decomp hole being there.

I'm gonna have to order one of these soon and get some new port timing numbers off of the cylinder to see if anything has changed.

either way, good luck!!

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

The stock alu head is running fantastic now on my yellow 65 with the dos botanas pipe. I have two of the puchshop 44mm heads running also. 1640 is dialed in decently and 1540 is the cranks bike I've had some issues with. The dos botanas is not the torquiest pipe, but adequate, doesn't have estoril type mids, but pulls nicely to a constant fart at 43mph with temps mostly under 300 except for mile long wot runs. It's pretty quiet overall and sounds really good, kind of like an mlm cali pop. I finally have what I need to run a smaller base gasket on the 1540 65 and the proper exhaust gasket to re-try the cranks pipe in hopes I get my low/mid back AND the treats 65 with the hi torque head for the 1545 i want to try.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

new high score on the 1645 of 45mph after downjetting to 72 and new points at .017, but i am getting a definitive clacking sound seemingly from the exhaust header at 35-40ish and trying to figure out what that is. It goes away after 40 and runs right up fine. I think it's probably heat as with the new points, and gap, i'm a little more advanced and closer to 350 on a full throttle run. I am going to drop the gap to .015 and see if that'll retard the temps a bit. what temp can you push this kit to? I start watching at 330, really watching at 350, and about to pull the plug at 370 and get off the throttle at 380 if i get that high. with the old points i was running very low 300s for miles and miles, but my point gap was tiny.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Man I am beating this horse to a pulp but it still sounds like you have an exhaust leak, they will sound like a click or chirp at low speed. If you didn't fix that alignment that was causing the back of your gasket to blow out before, it will keep doing it.

Nonetheless you're running closer to the top speed you should be so maybe quit while you're ahead, I dunno. 350 max CHT sounds good to me, I have no idea what it should be I've never run a temp gauge on mine. My guess is somewhere between 325-50 cruising and maybe 370-380 max wot up a big hill, with a conservative pipe.

Should be fine out past 400 but it's a low end kit, there is no power in running it that hot. If it's hot because of a leak, too much timing or too lean you're not making power doing that.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Graham, I tried out your strategy with setting the stator in the middle and seeing what happens, and honestly, it feels a whole lot better so thank you! when I can, I plan to hit it with a timing light to really dial it in.

Like you said this thread is like beating a dead horse at this point but as a resource for people in the future, I think this thread is soooo helpful.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Aaron Ward /

I've had my Airsal up in the 400's multiple times.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

Two different bikes. I just got the exhaust gasket yiu recommended for the other bike so will be testing that out. The issue i described today coukd also be exhaust and ill be checking that too. This thread is an awesome repository of all things airsal 65 in one place. Really appreciate your continued help. I just don't know enough to know wjat the different sounds and symptoms mean

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

just touching base with new info.

Got out for a long country ride yesterday. 11mi WOT blast, max temps around 330ºf to 340ºf with RPMs ranging between 9200 - 10400 rpms.

ABSOLUTELY shredded some hills, too.

Had a tiny bit of a rough spot at one point, but I think it must have just been a little something caught in the main jet.

I'll pull everything apart and check it out soon.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Awesome!

Love that this lil 'throwaway' kit is still getting so much love. My plans for this bike are to wash it and maybe grease the chain. Oh yeah gotta check air in the tires here one of these days.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /
5BD1D0A9-593D-4CCD-A7F1-F2A583ACB4AA.jpeg

Really curious to see how different your bike is than my bing 14 and if i really am maxed out on mu bike with whats on it. The dos botanas doesnt really “hit”, but it sounds good and runs up good. Not sure why some days my bike just touches 42 and other days pushes 45, but its solid for the most part. And graham you can throw one away to me. I need another. I wonder how much more id get out of the 70 but having to get a head for it and probably a crank is drag. (edited)

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

i bet if you drop the gearing super low and adjust timing to match the high rpms you'll rev out past 10k with that botanas pipe.

I think I'm gonna have to get another spring mount header flange welded up so I can get a good exhaust seal on this cylinder once and be able to just change chambers on the fly in the future.

It would be cool to just swap around chambers on a 1-speed and swap sprockets/jets accordingly

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Adam that's a good idea I've been kicking around the same thing for my Dyno. I was thinking about making an aluminum spigot flange with the o ring in it, so the pipe just needs a larger od sleeve to go over.

I have the red silicone oring on my tsm exhaust and it's holding up good so far. Similar to dirt bike pipes.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

i’ve got lathed pieces that i had welded to my bakers dozen tomos that seal pretty well once warmed up.

shit rocks. i can take my top end off without breaking intake or exhaust seal

96A5F791-B670-44D8-AA02-C3C0A168FD2C.jpeg
1C57D080-E4C4-43EB-801C-AE5408B86CD3.jpeg

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

Wow, that would be novel. I'm about to install my 5th airsal 65 and every one of them is super tight around the exhaust and difficult to be sure I'm getting a good seal. I've always ground down the exhaust flange, but I'm going to going to grind the fins on this one. Of course I wouldn't have to worry about that with this super-mod. Of course me doing something like this is like rubbing two sticks together to make fire. I'd need someone to do it.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Dirty30 Dillon /

Five E50's all running 44mm Airsals... Why not diversify your collection with some different kits? There are so many other flavors out there.

Not that I don't appreciate the minutiae of this thread, but if I owned 5 E50 powered bikes I would a) cry and b) at least slap a Treats Reed Especiale, Puch Polini, or 46mm Airsals on a few. Heck, it really ain't to hard getting the 47mm kits on there with a simple set of tools.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

Hah!. I will try something else at some point. Id rather ride than wrench. I ve got a big family and limited moped time to keep them all in good running condition so i homogenized the fleet to make maintenance and troubke shooting simpler. I have a parts bike envisioned that i will probably try a polini on, but it drives me nuts to have a bike not running. I end up spending my moped time chasing that rather than riding. Im also slowly coming to the realization as my kids get older that my energy would be better spent on 2-3 that i could really focus on. Also ive kept everything mild because i dont want my boys or their knucklehead friends jumping on a bike and going 50. Last summer the first kid down the driveway didnt make it to the road… (edited)

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

Dirty30 Dillon /

No judgement bud, those are all good reasons.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

roots to wings /

Actually i always appreciate your help. The other thing is that the polini is an advanced intermediate/expert kit and the airsal is a novice/low intermediate level of expertise and know how. Once i feel like i can dial in the airsals with my eyes closed then ill go bigger. I recounted and only have 4 cylinders, but im on 5 pistons….wrecked the first one by gauling the wrist pin clip seat.

Re: Puch Maxi 65cc Airsal - No low end?

you’ll need a CDI to get to that point

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