Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /
boschcoil.jpg

Been fucking around with a Treats internal ignition coil that came with a bike I got and the points arc bad. I know the timing is good. I've tried running multiple condensers in parallel with a smaller plug gap (which helped as spark went from big blue to small white). I tried a 12v resistor (did nothing). Have a chance to buy a used old stock complete puch stator with bosch points, condenser, and internal coil and wondering if it's worth it rather than put an external ignition coil and corresponding stator on it. I've heard that many puchs in Europe use internal ignition coils, but I've spent way to much time on this already. Anyone have luck with these? (edited)

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

> roots to wings Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> the points arc bad

>I've

> tried running multiple condensers in parallel

Have you tried just replacing the condenser?

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

I would try a new condenser, bosch brand if possible.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

Shaun from myrons told me to wire multiple condensers in parallel and try a 12v regulator or unwind the coil and use the inner ignition coil with an external coil. I was able to get the bike to run without sputtering and backfiring with 2 external condensers but there is still some arcing. Tried adding a resistor but that did nothing. Debating on buying that used Bosch internal coil from Portugul but there is no guarantee that is good or rebuilding the whole ignition with and external setup or sourcing a high quality non Bosch replacement (which I haven’t been able to find). In running but am reluctant to continue experimenting with ported cylinders, kits, and pipes until my ignition is bulletproof and in not ready to go cdi yet

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

I know Shawn’s been around for 100 years but that’s insanely overcomplicated. The solution to one bad condenser is one good condenser.

If you want to run an internal HT coil, think about who makes the external HT coils that have never given you any problems.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

Jesse Nordlander /

High tension type coils usually suffer from the heat. Remove original condensor under flywheel, leave the wires connected together. Mount a condensor at coil and connect to hot side

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

I tested every condenser I had for ohms on a multimeter; the ones I pulled off bikes thinking they were bad and brand new. They all registered, so not sure how to tell how bad a failing condenser is by testing ohms other than how the bike runs. There has to be a better way. If I could find a known good Bosch coil (maybe they all are) I'd get it. Checking with Shaun to see if he has any. That guy in Portugal can't guarantee me that the coil he has is good for $63. I'm probably going to spend $40 for one, but at least I'll be able to send it back.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

This is an internal coil. There is no external. I have two condensers mounted externally and one internally.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

> roots to wings Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> This is an internal coil. There is no external. I have two condensers

> mounted externally and one internally.

Don’t you have three bikes? And don’t two of them have the stock external HT coils? They’re the big plastic ones with a thick wire that connects to the spark plug. Have any of those coils given you trouble?

For the bike with the internal coil, you’re describing a textbook symptom of a failing condenser. The textbook solution is to replace it with one good condenser. Just as an experiment, it may be worth trying that.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

6 bikes (one is a low mileage runner i have not touched at all, one is my son's that is in pieces and being painted and rebuilt, my other son's with a broken throttle cable, one that runs great, mine with a broken exhaust stud that needs to be welded out, and this bugger; and no the stock externals have not given me any trouble. need time to hook it up. i can also try one coil, but i suspect that the internal condenser on the bike in question is not bad either, which would mean i am really running 3 condensers. With 6 bikes, I end up firing before aiming alot. Spent all my shop time this weekend on this arcing issue and dicking around with replacing a throttle cable only to come to the realization that they sent the wrong size, and picking up a frame i bought. beginning to see how these can drown you and become all consuming. might need to thin the herd.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

Maybe he could take the pedals off of the bike and turn it into a motorcycle, then he wouldn't have all these moped issues.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

> roots to wings Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 6 bikes (one is a low mileage runner i have not touched at all, one is

> my son's that is in pieces and being painted and rebuilt, my other son's

> with a broken throttle cable, one that runs great, mine with a broken

> exhaust stud that needs to be welded out, and this bugger; and no the

> stock externals have not given me any trouble. need time to hook it up.

> i can also try one coil, but i suspect that the internal condenser on

> the bike in question is not bad either, which would mean i am really

> running 3 condensers. With 6 bikes, I end up firing before aiming alot.

> Spent all my shop time this weekend on this arcing issue and dicking

> around with replacing a throttle cable only to come to the realization

> that they sent the wrong size, and picking up a frame i bought.

> beginning to see how these can drown you and become all consuming.

> might need to thin the herd.

I don't even know what question you're asking anymore.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

♣Slew Foot♣ /

Try a non resistor plug and non resistor cap...

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

thanks - so running anything other than non-resistor plug and non-resistor cap could cause the arcing problem? pretty sure I am running a resistor plug on a non-resistor cap.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

thanks for hanging in there as long as you did chinatown. definitely appreciate the help. i will find the covenant for the arc.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

♣Slew Foot♣ /

You didn't mention brand of bike...

I too have one I never got running but I did run the za50 version for Tomos till a coil ripped loose and all the tin lining and about 15 ft of coil rewrapped the stator.

I was gonna try it in a shifty Sachs or a batavus...

But alas I am not that ambitious...

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

79 Puch Maxi e50 Hi Torque on a 76 lime green frame.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

Putting the coils aside for a sec, I think you might wanna figure out the issue with the arcing points sooner or later — even if the bike is running ok with the fireworks show, it could corrode or degrade the contact surfaces over time.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

wait, what?! operating theory is the internal ignition coil is causing the arcing

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

♣Slew Foot♣ /

Just slap a Tomos 12v regulator box or a kinetics done and done. You did bypass your horn right double check if there's still a resistor block in the Tailight housing or bucket see that the wiring inside headlight isn't grounding or something bad with the wiring brick.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

> roots to wings Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> wait, what?! operating theory is the internal ignition coil is causing

> the arcing

Arcing is usually excess electrical current that should, but doesn’t, go to the condenser when the points open. When a condenser is failing, it can’t store that current and as a result the current jumps the point gap. That’s the “arc,” and that’s why the cure for it is usually a new condenser. There’s a really easy way to test whether this is the case on your bike but I’ve given up recommending it. Just check your points now and then and file them down if they’re starting to corrode.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

Dude I'm hearing you. I can't test it rn as I am in NH with a sick relative, so I'm trying to solve it remotely and gut nothin better to do than jib jab while watching the bruins. I know I can test a single condenser and will but don't understand how i could hook up the condenser in question and two brand new ones external and have a condenser issue. I double checked with Shaun and he's confident. If you care I was able to source an original bosch internal ignition coil.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

I'll get a 12v box eventually. There is no horn, no controls, and the head and tails work. brake light wire goes to nothing. No wiring block at all just plug, light, and kill coming from stator.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

Solex engines use an internal ignition coil.

On Solexes, I test / check condensers using an analog meter:

https://rumble.com/vdcpvb-how-to-check-the-velosolex-solex-condenser-capacitor.html

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

> roots to wings Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> don't understand how i could hook up the

> condenser in question and two brand new ones external and have a

> condenser issue.

I’m not sure on this part, but if the bad condenser is losing current to ground instead of storing it, then would packing on additional condensers have any effect at all? Wouldn’t it be like wiring three light bulbs to a circuit that’s grounded out?

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

your the engineer. sounds like a christmas tree with a fucked up ground. maybe the ground of the ignition coil itself is loose somehow or loose enough to send inconsistent and weird spark. i did notice some difficulty in getting the timing mark to not chutter from side to side some of the times i've checked the timing.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

wow! very helpful Brian. I did not know any of that. I will definitely be retesting all my condensers when i get back home. does the lead go anywhere on the top of the condenser or right on the the part you solder/screw to?

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

roots to wings /

So Brian, can you wire multiple condensers in parallel? If so why would my points still arc if a had at least one good condenser out of 3?

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

♣Slew Foot♣ /

The safety override is messing with the Iggy. Head and tail are lit but the horn thing.

If I remember the horn had to work to keep spark. The bypass involved grounding the double wire to frame. I just spitballing but I remember arcing @ WOT due to the bypass.

Re: Do internal ignition coils work or am i pissing in the wind.

I don't understand the logic behind running multiple condensers. That's not what they're designed for. Resistors yes, but condensers?

I'm not an electrics expert by any means, and have my own problems to trouble shoot, but multiple condensers just doesn't seem right.

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