Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Here's my set up. Stock E50, stock clutch, stock points ignition. timing set at 17 btdc. 14mm Bing with 2.17 atomizer, currently 70 jet, needle in second groove from top, foam hi flow filter (I will get the metal mesh,)Acceleration from a stop is dismally slow, especially once the moped warms up fully. I have tried leaner jetting from 67-70 and there seems to be little difference. I have an o-ring seal at the intake/carb joint. No leak there. The bike runs about 30-33mph topped out on the level. I appreciate any help the collective wisdom has to offer.

Thanks,

Brad

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Overpriced Parts /

Foam filter nope, Use metal mesh filter,

217 atomizer nope that’s for a 15mm bing not 14mm, use a 222 atomizer, maybe lean single ring needle too then 70-72 jet will be good but only if you Tune Your Clutch!

To jet/tune correctly you have to be in your powerband! you cannot be in your powerband if your clutch engages at anemic stock 1400 RPM, you will not have enough carburetor signal, Tune your clutch with thick springs like stiff kickstart ones for around 5000 RPM engagement

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Thanks,that 217 atomizer was in this 14mm Bing but who knows the history of these old things. I will order the atomizer and filter and tune my clutch.

Thanks again.

Brad

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Tweaker trash /

> HBP 21 Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks,that 217 atomizer was in this 14mm Bing but who knows the history

> of these old things. I will order the atomizer and filter and tune my

> clutch.

>

> Thanks again.

>

> Brad

Iv ran some pretty crazy bing combination with great giants.

If u find away to run them fat off the line they like it

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Overpriced Parts /

> Tweaker trash Wrote:

> Iv ran some pretty crazy bing combination with great giants.

>

> If u find away to run them fat off the line they like it

Yes thats true. I can use almost any atomizer needle combo and get it to work OK because I only pretty much jet after I have everything else done (Cylinder prep and case match, base spacing, head squish, clutch tune, timing, gearing etc.)

But to the beginner who just slaps a kit on you got to say with what works easily because they have other issues, timing, tunings and things they don’t want to do or can’t or do, many are happy with reduced performance only getting 35 mph with a bit better takeoff out of 65-70cc kit that can rip to 50+mph ,

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

OK, 2.22 atomizer, 73 jet, single ring needle at full rich, 24 slide, metal mesh air filter. Kick start springs 1.5 turns out from flush in stock 2 shoe. What a difference! MUCH better acceleration and a little more on top, 34mph+-. Lots more tuning to do but I am in the ball park now. Thanks guys!

Tomorrow I will crank those clutch springs in and lean things out a bit and see how she goes. (edited)

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Overpriced Parts /

> HBP 21 Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> OK, 2.22 atomizer, 73 jet, single ring needle at full rich, 24 slide,

> metal mesh air filter. Kick start springs 1.5 turns out from flush in

> stock 2 shoe. What a difference! MUCH better acceleration and a little

> more on top, 34mph+-. Lots more tuning to do but I am in the ball park

> now. Thanks guys!

>

> Tomorrow I will crank those clutch springs in and lean things out a bit

> and see how she goes.

Almost 3 turns in from flush and 72 jet should help you out, you may need the single embossed ring leaner ring needle to get you completely dialed in

I don’t understand I’ve been posting the 222 atomizer for 14mm bing With14mm intake and mesh filter, 72 jet, kickstart springs and low timing, for decades,

I don’t know why people go with other Jet atomizer, timing and tuning selections, I guess some people are stubborn and Like having slow bikes!

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

I don't know why other people do anything they do. I do know why I had a 2.17 atomizer. It is the one that came in the 14mm Bing on my Pinto. Some 14s did indeed come with the 2.17. I took your advice. I am neither stubborn or in favor of slow.

I will also take your advice on the clutch spring set up. Thanks again.

At this time I do not have a 72 jet. I have a 71 and a 73. I am already using the single embossed needle which also came in the Pinto carburetor.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

> Overpriced Parts Wrote: and low timing

How low? I am at 17 btdc,

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

I can see what I'm going to be doing today.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

> HBP 21 Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Overpriced Parts Wrote: and low timing

>

> How low? I am at 17 btdc,

I'm wondering the same

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Overpriced Parts /

> Jeff Parr Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > HBP 21 Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > > Overpriced Parts Wrote: and low timing

>

> >

>

> > How low? I am at 17 btdc,

>

> I'm wondering the same

That’s where the tuning comes in, you can run as much timing as you want as long as you have cool sustained head/engine temperatures,

My kitted bikes run anywhere from 14° to 16° and non kitted 18-19 deg but I have long high speed straightaways and a few pretty long hills that I can’t back off with trucks/traffic on my ass if head temps go too high,

I do lose a little bit of power with low timing but Having uncontrolled temperatures that spike to seize zone it’s something I cannot have

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Right now I have a 51 slide, 222 atomizer, single ring needle full lean, 72 main jet, mesh filter. Seems close.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

> Overpriced Parts Wrote:

> That’s where the tuning comes in, you can run as much timing as you want

> as long as you have cool sustained head/engine temperatures,

>

> My kitted bikes run anywhere from 14° to 16° and non kitted 18-19 deg

> but I have long high speed straightaways and a few pretty long hills

> that I can’t back off with trucks/traffic on my ass if head temps go too

> high,

>

> I do lose a little bit of power with low timing but Having uncontrolled

> temperatures that spike to seize zone it’s something I cannot have

I wish the owner of the ride would flip for a temp gauge but he doesn't think its useful.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Moped is running pretty well except at idle, 33-34 mph with decent acceleration. It idles VERY low and often dies at stops. Loosening the top of the carburetor to create an air leak does not increase idle speed. I have kick start spring turned in from flush about 2.5 turns and the clutch fully engages at about 20 MPH. Opening the throttle less than a 1.4 turn will often kill the engine. 1/4 to have turn and off it goes.

Current specs are 222 atomizer, 72 jet, 51 slide, single ring needle in 2nd groove from top. Timing at 19 BTDC, NGK BR6HS gapped @ .016", points gapped @ .016". The engine has 127# compression. The low idle is there regardless of jetting, needle position or timing or slide choice (51 or 24 and modded 24.) I have not tried my 217 atomizer. I've installed a new float and the needle was already new. The float is set just a little lower than level ( a little higher than level when inverted.)

My only clue is that if I start then engine, let it sit at the low idle, then pull the plug, it is wet. Very rich at idle yet a plug chop delivers a very light brown color on the porcelain. I have a mesh air filter and Techno Estoril on a stock aluminum E50 (JC Penny Pinto 2). My bike has a Treats coil with a long plug wire with the brass terminal that attaches under the threaded nut on the end of the plug.

Help. :)

Thanks in advance.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Maybe I should try jetting down to a 69. That's 5 up from the stock 64. Right now I am up 8.There just seems to be too much fuel at idle.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

HBP

Same problem here. I'm thinking of down jetting and I also got a #25 slide to see if it will lean out some and idle better. I tried a 217 atomizer and it would idle perfect but it just ran like crap at low and mid range but had great top end. I think between the two of use we can make these run great and learn a bit aboot bing carbs.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Jeff, ole buddy, I hope you are right. The carburetor that came on this bike was a 1/14/157 that had a 24 slide, 217 atomizer an 72 jet. It was in terrible shape do I bought a

1/14/160 and that is what I'm

working with now. Hopefully we

will get this figured out. Keep me

posted.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Instead of having your page and my page lets keep it all here on this page.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

roots to wings /

I’ve followed kens specs on multiple bikes for 14mm and 15mm bing carbs and they work for me. It’s actually nice to have a known base point for diagnosing. When they did not work, I found that I had something else wrong like a leak, a snot in the carb, points, timing

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

I don't doubt Ken's specs at all. I have something else going on that I just haven't found yet.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

I sonic cleaned my carburetor and reassembled it with a 71 jet and the needle in the second notch from the top. As soon as I start it, it idles pretty fast but as it warms up the idle starts to drop even with the idle screw all the way in.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Could this be a condenser issue? Maybe the ignition isn't firing consistently at low speeds and that's why the plug is wet when I pull it.

With a 72 jet it's a nice light tan when doing a plug chop and not wet at all.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

roots to wings /

HBP. i'd reclean points and triple check every point of entry on your carb as a first measure, but if you can't get idle, i'd be looking for an air leak. are you still running a 2.17 on the 14mm? i have had a bike that would stall at lights but it also had dirty points and dirty carb. if your condenser was going your bike may not run right when warm

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Thanks Roots. I have a 222 atomizer, Single ring needle and 51 slide in my 14mm Bing. The carburetor is VERY clean. When I start the bike it idles very fast with the idle screw all the way in, but, within a minute it starts losing speed and finally settles into a very marginal idle. Taking it out and riding for 10-15 minutes it will get to where it stalls at stops. It runs good at wide open throttle and really from a 1/4 throttle on up. Where it struggles is idle and just off idle. Just barely cracking the throttle will just about kill the engine at times after the engine is fully warmed up.

I have checked extensively for air leaks. Starter fluid can't find anything.

It seems to me that the ignition may not be performing well at low RPMs. I will pull the rotor tomorrow and clean and re-gap the points, etc. and reset the timing and see how it goes.

Thanks again. (edited)

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

What you are describing is normal for an engine going from cold to hot.

The reason the carb has a choke is because cold engines don’t vaporize fuel as well.

When the engine is cold, it sucks in mix, but not as many droplets of gasoline turn to vapor. So, you are actually a little lean (from the point of view of the combustion chamber) when cold. Hence a choke.

A warm engine flash vaporizes them droplets. That’s where you need a carb tuned right - when it’s at operating temp.

This is the reason people say that a properly tuned carb won’t start without the choke on.

Like I said in the other thread, check out that bing slide mod. It really does make this problem go away with almost no time or effort.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Temps are diff for everyone. Maybe a guy that keeps his ped in an attached (or even heated) garage would never understand this. Or if the person lives somewhere that is always warm. Or even if they are fair weather riders that never start a two stroke in winter.

If you are tuning a frozen engine in February, you will have a much more intimate experience with this issue. Most bikes I have (2T or 4T) need to be ridden the first several blocks with the choke on in cold temps.

Hope that helps (edited)

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Thanks Papa. What I have described is not running with the choke, then pulling the choke off. It had been warm here, 72 a couple of days ago, mid 60s yesterday. This is not my first moped and I have raced and tuned cars and motorcycles. None of that makes me immune to making mistakes but normal operation should not include a very low idle and occasional stalling with the idle screw maxed in. Right now I have the idle raised with throttle cable adjustment. Still searching.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Sounds like maybe worn rings?

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

127# compression.

Re: Same problem as Jeff Parr below, E50, very weak accelleration.

Down jetted to #70 and still wont idle so now it's time to try the #25 slide. If that is a no go then I'm thinking about going back to the 217 atomizer where it did idle but ran bad. I can play with the needle from there. will post back with results.

P.S. anybody have a link to kens carb post? I need to read it again but cant find it.

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