More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

Oct 17, 2020 03:19PM

I'm running a Maxi with a Malossi 62cc kit, not case matched, custom high-comp head, 15 Bing with a 79 jet and needle clip on the second ring down, velocity stack with the foam removed, 16x45, timed at 16-17 degrees BTDC, temps hit low to mid 300s after a few mins at WOT. A while back I switched from an MLM sidebleed to a Cranks pipe, which I like a LOT (thanks Ryan). The bike goes bananas when the pipe hits, but I lost a little low end and have been trying to make it up without sacrificing top speed through gearing.

Part of the tinkering has been with the clutch, and I posted the other day about grooves I found inside the clutch bell after I pulled the old clutch out and found it beat to shit (even though it was performing pretty well). I've since replaced the shoes with OEM shoes, drilled/tapped/countersunk the posts for an MLM brace, and dropped in kickstart springs that release at about 37-38 lbs on the fish scale. (This is more tension than the previous blue spring setup.) I really don't know anything about transmission fluid and I've been using regular Type F ATF, and I knew Roffman would have some words for me about that so I picked up some 5w20 this afternoon.

ANYWAY, I can feel the clutch engage initially and give me a little push that feels promising, but it seems to briefly lose a little power and struggle for a few seconds after that. It's not quite bogging, but it feels like a loss or delay in engagement as the bike comes off the line. Once it gets to 10-12mph it's fine, and it hauls ass after that.

I have this theory that my torn-up old clutch had over time worn grooves into the bell that matched the ridges of the remaining pad material, making it a perfect fit despite its poor condition, and that the fresh pads are only making contact with the un-grooved part of the bell, for less overall grip until centrifugal force pushes it all the way in. I don't know if that's what's actually happening, tho.

If anyone has any ideas I'd sure like to hear them. I have a smoother bell on hand, but I'd rather not tear down the engine to install it now since the season's gonna end before long and I'll be rebuilding it in the winter anyway. Here's some clutch failure porn for your trouble.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Jay Rivett /

bjaockx

Oct 17, 2020 08:24PM

That could maybe be happening but I feel like you said that a caliper wasnt able to measure any real depth to the grooves. It could be that you springs are just a little too tight and causing a lot more slippage before fully engaging. Is that not the intended result by putting in stiffer springs?

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

chinatownkicks OP

Oct 17, 2020 09:44PM

Thanks — yeah, I totally get the point and effect of stiffer springs, and if it were just a delay or slow windup I’d think they were just cranked down too far. But I think I feel them engage at an appropriate point before actually losing a little of the push rather than steadily gaining. Can’t hurt to back them out a little, tho, just to see.

As for my groove theory, I have no idea if it’s realistic or not, I’m just kind of stumped on this one.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Probably Fred /

roffman

Oct 17, 2020 10:43PM

Get a lower rpm pipe like estroil, run motor oil and your clutch problems will go away, Mine did, stock clutches with just thick springs no brace last for years as well as the clutch bells.

Handmade pipes are great but do to higher rpm hit are harder on clutches so I bolt my handmade mlm, motormatic and modded dirt bike pipes on when I want to make speed runs for fun but for everyday use I use derestricted estroil pipes that make good power down low,

Type f is junk, it’s not even good for stock applications but that’s all they knew back then, synthetic motor oil is way better, More slip, less fade when hot and more protection for all transmission components.

Looks like you may need a clutch bell soon, I mean you could run it but it would be nice to start out with a nice smooth bell and nos or like new shoes when you switch to motor oil.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

chinatownkicks OP

Oct 17, 2020 11:55PM

Thanks man. I have an Estoril on another bike, and it does have solid low end. This one is like a bullet from 30 to 40, and a blast overall, so if the fact is that I just don’t have the RPMs to move it fast off the line then I may gear down as a compromise. It just felt like I was missing some little thing that would have pulled it all together.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

🦺🥇b to the MOPO 🚨🚨🚨 eff /

Go to branch

brianf

Oct 18, 2020 12:46AM

Jammer clutch with royal purple max ATF. It slips like crazy up to about 25 mph where it engages fully, and then the power just keeps on coming. On my setup this combo is amazing; great low end AND great top end:

Puch polini, vm20, malossi 4 petal reed block, 18x42 gearing, estoril sidebleed exhaust.

Motor oil would probably make it even better. Check this thread for some trans oil adventures: https://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?7,4314527

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

brad peterson /

_fj0rd

Oct 19, 2020 01:25AM

thanks so much for posting the link brian, ive been searching for like 20 minutes for a post about e50 tranny fluid haha

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

operator error 696 420 /

carless

Oct 19, 2020 02:51AM

Stone grind the fucking belll!

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

chinatownkicks OP

Oct 19, 2020 08:19AM

Ahhh, I don’t know, man, I feel like if I take a Dremel to that thing I’m gonna do more harm than good

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Adam Smith /

banzi

Oct 19, 2020 09:30AM

i like two2cool for slipping also motorex super atf seems really good too!

i think your springs could be a bit too tight but maybe not :)

what is your squish value, moving it closer to 0.7-0.8mm which help with the inital take off slightly, also with them timings and chtemps you could have a little more timing possibly and this may help your take off slightly too.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

chinatownkicks OP

Oct 19, 2020 07:47PM

Thanks again, guys. I backed off the springs a little and replaced the ATF with 5w20 and did get some slightly better results. Did both at the same time, though, so couldn't immediately attribute it to either one. I'm sure I'll mess around with the springs again and advance the timing a little, and try to update for future generations.

Squish is like right around 1mm, so I suppose I could lose the head gasket but I remember reading that squish decreases at speed and I've always been a little cautious about messing around when the margin for error is so small.

BTW, I know about leaning the bike over to open the clutch cover without draining it, but is there some trick to getting it back on easily? It's always a hassle to simultaneously hold the lever, line up the bolt holes, and keep the gasket in place (even lubed with oil).

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

chinatownkicks OP

Oct 20, 2020 06:01PM

For the next person working this through, I re-measured the tension on the springs and they were slightly off from one another. Maybe because they were brand new when I put them in? I don't know. Measure twice, I guess. Anyway I got them both to about 35 lbs. and advanced the timing a hair to 18 degrees and with the 5w20 oil, it's doing a lot better from a stop. Thanks again for all the advice on this one.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

roots to wings /

massboy

Oct 21, 2020 10:28PM

psue psue psuedio...

when my bike ran good before i attempted to roff it, 14/40 with an estoril was awesome. once i make it back there, i'm going to hit the clutch.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Jay Rivett /

bjaockx

Oct 22, 2020 12:59PM

> Chinatown Kicks Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

>

> BTW, I know about leaning the bike over to open the clutch cover without

> draining it, but is there some trick to getting it back on easily? It's

> always a hassle to simultaneously hold the lever, line up the bolt

> holes, and keep the gasket in place (even lubed with oil).

Honest answer is no there is not a super easy way with that actuator arm on push start e50 bikes.

But what makes thing easy enough for me is to place all of the bolts into the cover. Put the gasket over the bolts or of you can get it to stick to the engine that works too.

Then get the top right bolt slightly threaded into place while holding the arm in the right position. Then get the other bolts threaded in. Tighten them down in a cross pattern to make sure they go in evenly.

The real trick is with the arm. Use a 10mm open wrench on the little nub on the arm. It allows you to rotate the wrench and actuate the arm easily to get the cable back in place.

If you do a kickstart or pull start conversion it makes things much more simple getting into the clutch.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Chinatown Kicks /

chinatownkicks OP

Oct 22, 2020 05:08PM

> Jay Rivett Wrote:

> Honest answer is no there is not a super easy way with that actuator arm

> on push start e50 bikes.

>

> But what makes thing easy enough for me is to place all of the bolts

> into the cover. Put the gasket over the bolts or of you can get it to

> stick to the engine that works too.

>

> Then get the top right bolt slightly threaded into place while holding

> the arm in the right position. Then get the other bolts threaded in.

> Tighten them down in a cross pattern to make sure they go in evenly.

>

> The real trick is with the arm. Use a 10mm open wrench on the little

> nub on the arm. It allows you to rotate the wrench and actuate the arm

> easily to get the cable back in place.

>

> If you do a kickstart or pull start conversion it makes things much more

> simple getting into the clutch.

Quality tips-n-tricks, man, thank you! I'll try it next time.

BTW for those playing at home, the low end was sufficiently improved with rebalancing, backing off, and new oil that I was able to put a 17t up front.

Re: More E50 Clutch Issues, I Think

Mike Boyd /

Go to branch

boyd

Oct 22, 2020 05:09PM

Balancing the shoes so that they all engage at the same time is really the biggest improvement you can make. Glad you got it all sorted.

MOPED ARMY

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