Puch 12volt LED light conversion

I've read all I can. I've planned. Parts are in the mail. Now it's time to get down to business.

But there is still one thing I'm confused about. I read in the wiki that you shouldn't ground the lights to the frame or you run the risk of burning out your expensive LEDs prematurely. So where the heck do I ground them?

My wiring has been super simplified. No brake lights. No speedo light. No horn. No turn signals. While I'm fooling with it, should I add any of these features? I'm leaning towards a horn and brake light.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Bad Cadillac™ /

Yes, you need a brake light!

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Blaine- The artist formerly known as Plumber Crack "(OFMC)" /

Link to this wiki info please.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Blaine- The artist formerly known as Plumber Crack "(OFMC)" Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Link to this wiki info please.

Here's the link to the whole wiki. The subcategory is "lighting - you blew it."

https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Category:Repair_tutorials

This one has been helpful too. I think I'll hit up maize for a wiring diagram.

https://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?1,4023959,4023959

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

I've heard various reasons why DC part of the rectification from two wire floated ac to DC shouldn't be frame ground so on all my conversions I built a return wire path.i am never 100% sure it's needed but I do it. It def makes for mega more work. The only thing frame grounded is the kill switch.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Marc Friedman Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I've heard various reasons why DC part of the rectification from two

> wire floated ac to DC shouldn't be frame ground so on all my

> conversions I built a return wire path.i am never 100% sure it's needed

> but I do it. It def makes for mega more work. The only thing frame

> grounded is the kill switch.

Return to what? The stator?

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Dirty30 Dillon /

How are you sourcing your DC power? LED's really really really like consistency, so I never bother running LED on anything that isn't battery fed. Sure, people run LED's of their lumpy, weak AC stators, but regulated, constant DC is needed to actual get good output from an LED.

I agree with Marc, that it is easy to create a ground path back from the from to the stator/block so that there is no opportunity to fry your LED's.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> How are you sourcing your DC power? LED's really really really like

> consistency, so I never bother running LED on anything that isn't

> battery fed. Sure, people run LED's of their lumpy, weak AC stators, but

> regulated, constant DC is needed to actual get good output from an LED.

>

> I agree with Marc, that it is easy to create a ground path back from the

> from to the stator/block so that there is no opportunity to fry your

> LED's.

I have a rectifier regulator. Depending on what the head light looks like when it arrives, I may or may not have to ground it. I'll probably have to ground the tail lights.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

So I had a long talk with my dad today about grounding. He seems to think that grounding anything post reg/rec is a bad idea. His logic is that after the 12v light coil and reg/rec any juice flowing through those wires will be 12 volt direct current. Since the 6 volt alternating current ignition is grounded to the motor/frame, it's a bad idea to also ground the 12v d/c lights to the motor, stator, or frame. So he suggests an independent, non-grounded circuit for the 12v d/c lights. I.e. send the black wires back from the lights to the black wire on the reg/rec. The lights will not be grounded, but the circuit will be complete.

I'm inclined to trust his opinion because he has worked as an electrician professionally and has built a few old cars. But I wanted to run it past the moped experts. Let me know what you think.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

That's what I said. Yes your dad is correct. Both the floated ac light coil and the DC that is produced from it (rectification) are not grounded to frame. But is your ac floated?? Do u know what I mean ?

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Marc Friedman Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> That's what I said. Yes your dad is correct. Both the floated ac light

> coil and the DC that is produced from it (rectification) are not

> grounded to frame. But is your ac floated?? Do u know what I mean ?

I do now! Hahaha I just had to wrap my head around it.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

To clarify, the 6v ac ignition coil will be grounded to the frame. Anything coming from the 12v coil will be floated.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Thierry Marseille /

Ok

LED light need two thinks

1) DC voltage and moped deliver AC voltage

2) Regular voltage impossible to have with a moped engine gererator

So by a chines scooter regulator for less 10$

it will convert and regulate voltage for led usage

Chines regulator

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Blaine- The artist formerly known as Plumber Crack "(OFMC)" /

Float the AC, no need to run deficated grounds everywhere.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

LED's have issues. Immediate death by over voltage and shut down or pulsing at under voltage, even on a rectified/ regulated source. There are a lot of fog light bulbs in the 27 watt halogen range that work well on a moped and are a lot tougher than LEDs. An 880 base fits perfectly in a P15d mount, you just make an interchangeable pigtail with the 880 socket. I have a 10w 1000 lumen aux LED spot light on a separate switch to turn on when running and off at idle on 6v rectified system with a trail tech to dump bulb killing voltage over 13.8. The halogen is on full time.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Trifflin Milton Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> His logic is

> that after the 12v light coil and reg/rec any juice flowing through

> those wires will be 12 volt direct current. Since the 6 volt

> alternating current ignition is grounded to the motor/frame, it's a bad

> idea to also ground the 12v d/c lights to the motor, stator, or frame.

Your Dad is a smart guy.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Trifflin Milton Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > His logic is

>

> > that after the 12v light coil and reg/rec any juice flowing through

>

> > those wires will be 12 volt direct current. Since the 6 volt

>

> > alternating current ignition is grounded to the motor/frame, it's a

> bad

>

> > idea to also ground the 12v d/c lights to the motor, stator, or frame.

>

> Your Dad is a smart guy.

That's why I called him!

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

I finally got all the parts and rewired the whole bike. The headlight is BRIGHT! I love it. The tail light and brake light works as it should. But the lights still flicker even though its dc going to them. I'll probably put a battery in the loop. Any suggestions on the battery? Preferably something small.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Buy an AGM type battery . They last . You can buy a wet cell and replace it next year , but , that seems a waste .

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Brad William /

.... use an mr16 12v "landscaping" bulb.

There's a thread on here somewhere that discusses it.

https://www.bulbamerica.com/products/philips-8-5w-mr16-led-4000k-narrow-flood-dimmable-bulb-75w-equiv?CAWELAID=120150920005041681&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=11299126566&CATCI=pla-122541242406&catargetid=120150920000802591&cadevice=c&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjN7YBRCOARIsAFCb934IZTURlH7mDiKMPAhD4OrcJaPuSOaSgGTTSQ9D2dH9swNkysTIx9oaAu4wEALw_wcB

This seem like a nice one. I've had two somewhat lesser rated (lumens) wired parallel STRAIGHT to the stator. Dim but stay lit when idle, lights up the road fantastically when running. Been running two summers now non stop. No problems. These MR16 bulbs just seem to love the ragged peaky voltage coming off my ZA50. Internally rectified, choked, smoothed, etc. Have little circuit boards inside. Nice pattern at 35degrees (mine). The above might be better yet at 25d.

I'm know nothing about electronics and lighting. I tried an mr16 on a lark since menards had one on sale for a buck. I was astonished at how well it worked just wired direct. So I got a much better rated pair from Home Depot for six bucks each and wired them parallel. Ran beautifully. Many many hours later, still running like new. Very happy.(edited)

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Brad William /

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-50-Watt-Equivalent-MR16-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-Glass-470278/302187933

This is the pair that I have currently on the bike. 7.5 x 2 = 15. 15 watts is reported to be the max output of the oem e50 (I said za50 above but I meant e50).

The bulb I linked to in the above post is 8.5w. 17w ought to be fine for the e50.. we'll see in the future. But the beam is rated (by the same company) at 90 lumens brighter, 10 degrees narrower, and 1000k whiter so it ought to be a noticeable improvement. As mentioned previously, Philips mounts these leds on a round heatsink-circuit board with all the circuitry they feel necessary to safeguard these bulbs against the range of crap low voltage ac that landscapers are liable to throw at them. Surely a 1984 howling vibration maker of a moped engine is at the bad end of that range.... nonetheless they've survive it just fine.

As to the original poster, YMMV of course, but these are grounded to frame with no negative effects for two pretty high mileage summers now.(edited)

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

I know almost zero about electrical. I tried an LED sealed beam and small LED tail lights. Light lasted about 2 weeks and died and took that the tail LED.

What do you all mean about "floating" a ground to AC. Don't ground to chassis? Details appreciated.

If there is a non LED headlight bulb that works in the stock light and is better/best, please share a link for me! Appreciate!

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Brad William /

> Lee Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I know almost zero about electrical. I tried an LED sealed beam and

> small LED tail lights. Light lasted about 2 weeks and died and took

> that the tail LED.

>

Please, which bulbs did you use? An led meant for dc flashlight, or steady dc automotive use is going to fry very quickly off of a moped motor. Your bike's circuit is delivering AC at anything from 2vac to 20vac or more depending on RPM. And it's ragged, peaky voltage on top of that, not the steady dc you'd expect from a battery.

I'd be surprised if you fried "landscaping" bulbs of the type I've recommended. Unlike automotive bulbs they are designed to accept AC in a wide range of voltages.(edited)

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Lee Snover Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I know almost zero about electrical. I tried an LED sealed beam and

> small LED tail lights. Light lasted about 2 weeks and died and took

> that the tail LED.

>

> What do you all mean about "floating" a ground to AC. Don't ground to

> chassis? Details appreciated.

>

> If there is a non LED headlight bulb that works in the stock light and

> is better/best, please share a link for me! Appreciate!

By float I mean do not ground to chassis. The plug is getting AC. Everything else grounded to the chassis runs off of AC.

I got a 12v light coil and ran it through a trail tech regulator rectifier before the led lights. LED lights will not run well on AC and will burn out quickly. This is 12v DC coming off the reg rec. Do not ground this circuit to the chassis. Mixing grounding of AC and DC is a bad idea. Simply route the black wires back to the reg rec. So float it. Meaning it is not grounded, but the circuit is complete.

For my tail and brake lights I just got cheap bulbs off amazon that had the same base. The headlight is actually intented for a tractor. I dont have the link anymore but its friggin bright as hell. Do a little searching and you'll see which brand I'm talking about.

In a nutshell. To run led lights, get a 12v light coil. Use a reg rec to convert to DC. Float the circuit.

My rig had worked solid for about a year with no issues.

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

Brad William /

Or you could just....

...jesus, nevermind. I'm a ghost here

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

This is the headlight I used:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LBKCRSR/

This is what I used for the tail light:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XTV5KBC/

So when you guys say float the ground, you are talking about using some sort of additional voltage regulator off a 12v system. I was just asking if there is any LEDs that will work with the stock 6V system that won't fry, and won't cause troubles with the stock electronics.

I don't understand all the bits that need to be changed and added for 12v or if that introduced any additional problem areas. Treats has a 12 volt light coil: https://www.treatland.tv/puch-12-volt-light-coil-2-0-improved-version-p/puch-light-coil.htm

But it is out of stock. Is this a "plug and play" part with a regulator, or does everything that get's connected need to be "floated" as you say (i.e. a positive and negative needs to be run from the coil? but no ground should be attached to the chassis in any other manner?)

Appreciate the patience. I am admittedly ignorant on vehicle wiring topics, but I would like to learn. I had a little Honda 250 motorcycle, and I just replaced all the bulbs with LEDs and everything was cool. I'm taking it that the moped puts out this someone "old fashioned" AC electric at 6volts stock, and this is what gives the LEDs fits. By using the 12 volt coil and running that to a 12 volt regulator, each LED light for the headlamp, and tail lamp can be wired to the regulator. Where it would get complicated is the brake lights, as you need to wire the brake switches into this "floating" part of the system. And you still need to leave the horn and ignition on the 6volt part of the system? So I'm assuming there are two coils in play?

Lee

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

> Brad William Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-50-Watt-Equivalent-MR16-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-Glass-470278/302187933

>

> This is the pair that I have currently on the bike. 7.5 x 2 = 15. 15

> watts is reported to be the max output of the oem e50 (I said za50 above

> but I meant e50).

>

> The bulb I linked to in the above post is 8.5w. 17w ought to be fine for

> the e50.. we'll see in the future. But the beam is rated (by the same

> company) at 90 lumens brighter, 10 degrees narrower, and 1000k whiter so

> it ought to be a noticeable improvement. As mentioned previously,

> Philips mounts these leds on a round heatsink-circuit board with all the

> circuitry they feel necessary to safeguard these bulbs against the range

> of crap low voltage ac that landscapers are liable to throw at them.

> Surely a 1984 howling vibration maker of a moped engine is at the bad

> end of that range.... nonetheless they've survive it just fine.

>

> As to the original poster, YMMV of course, but these are grounded to

> frame with no negative effects for two pretty high mileage summers now.

So you can install this in the stock headlight housing? It will work at 6v, or you need to upgrade to12v? It doesn't cause issues with the rest of the electrical system?

Re: Puch 12volt LED light conversion

The light I used is a larsen tractor light. If you get the right size it will def fit in the original light housing.

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