New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? Help!

I've run this new 65cc Arisal kit about fourty miles so far on my 00' Targa. Before the bike would get alittle jerky here and there. Larger jets where suggested and seemed to help. Now with the new kit, 66 jet, stock carb, estroil exhaust, it still(if not more so) is jerking around.

Usually, off the bat, it has trouble going from first to second. Then at high speed (rpms) it bogs out in a jerky kind of way. It goes in and out fast until I throttle down and find a nice RPM it likes. Uphill I can open it up and it's not so bad...but downhill fast it's a jerky jerker.

I did a plug chop and it wasn't a rich brown, it leaned more on the grey side. I changed the tranny fluid and it struggled so after it was warmed up I let alittle fluid out while standing on level ground...that seemed to help it run smoother. But then jerk-a-jerk-a-jerk it was back occationally.

New clutch? Does running too lean in this 40F weather cause it to run rough? Smoother with a 68 jet maybe? These are the questions I have for you guyz with experience.

Let me say jerky a few more times...jerky jerkin' jerky jerk. Thanks.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

John Joedicke /

You say its lean? Personally I think you have too big a jet , no more than 58-60 needed with that set up.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

First try to determine if it jerks due to fuel mix (intermittant plug misfiring) or the clutch or another part of the drive train... or something else, like a spark plug or wiring or ignition tuneup problem.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

ok.. that wasn't much help.

you said "Before the bike would get alittle jerky here and there." Does that mean before the kit and modifications? A previous problem?

"Usually, off the bat, it has trouble going from first to second." Do you mean trouble as in jerkiness at the shift point? Or does it have no power when it shifts to 2nd? or what?

"It goes in and out fast until I throttle down and find a nice RPM it likes." A vacuum leak can do this.

"I changed the tranny fluid and it struggled..." What do you mean by struggled?

Try to be scientific in your diagnosis. Change one thing at a time and test and carefully note the results. Then try something else. you have a problem that could be caused by so many things. The description you provide is not specific enough information to determine a specific problem.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Yeah before the new kit it had this problem. It's at the shift point that it does this, and it helps if I let off the throttle to help it to shift. Then once it's into 2nd I can give it throttle again until it revs too high and starts to cut in and out. so I throttle down alittle until it runs smooth. Once it's running smooth I'll throttle up again and it will start reving too high and cutting out again.

Off the bat it's slow to start, like somethings not engaging. Then, as it starts to get going, and becomes engaged, it goes until second comes around...then, still in first it revs high and jerks (reving high then low then high) until it connects with second gear. Once in second I'm good, until too high an rpm, then it cuts in and out jerking me on the bike...ree ree ree aw re aw re re re aw aw ree ree aw aw ree ree.

If the jet is too big, what color would the plug be if I checked the chop? I'm about to check that out...but does the 66 jet sound to big? It's what was recommended. The spark plug miss firing would make sense to the way it behaves...I mean why would it do this at high rpm's into second gear if the clutch had problems? Isn't the clutches job done once your well into second gear?

I say it struggled when I changed the tranny fluid in that it made this problem more obvious. Once it warmed up I drained alittle fluid out of the side (phillips) hole, because when I opened it up the fluid came pouring out. Once it was just dripping I put the screw back in (all this on level ground). It seemed to run alittle smoother then. Still the problem was there though.

It is hard to describe. I'll try to get the right jet in there by getting some differnt sizes to do a proper chop to get the right fuel mixture for sure first. Then I'll see what's next. Thanks, I'll keep this up to date, there is another guy out there with a similar problem I noticed.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

1- do some plug chops to ensure you have the jetting correct.

2- make sure the tranny fluid level is correct and filled with type a suffix a.

3- double check that the head bolts are torqued to 10 ft/lbs and the intake manifold bolts are tight.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

sounds like the clutch to me.. something's slipping.. And no, the 2nd gear clutch's job is not done once you shift to 2nd anymore than the first clutch's job is done when you take off from a complete stop. They're centrifugal clutches and remain engaged above some set RPM.

The prior problem rules out any engine modifications causing this. The clutches remain unaltered.

The tranny fluid's change making any difference at all is another clue that points to clutches.

There is far more strain on a clutch in high gear than in low gear.. The first indication of a slipping clutch will make itself apparent in high gear. Engine RPM / gear ratio is widest in highest gear. (imagine starting from a dead stop in 5th gear.. very difficult for a clutch to get you going.)

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

btw.. if it is a clutch problem, the cure could be as simple as using the correct lubricant. What do you have in there now?

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

dextron III mercon is in there, It's what always been used.

So I just went out for more test. It's night time and down to 30F and from the get-go it did better. Then I tried running it with the air filter off and it went fast, high rpm, without the jerkiness. So I guess the jet is just too big. I have a 64 and 63 so I'll try those and do a chop tommorrow and see what happens.

As far as the clutch...the bikes got over 7,000 miles on it so the clutches might have alittle something to do with it. Probably just the jet though as far as the main problem.

Thanks you all and I hope it's that simple.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

So this morning I put a 64 jet in and all day downtown things got worse and more jerky, esp on the high end going downhill. At the end of the day I put the 66 back In and I was finally able to work it slowly to full throttle down a hill and just rip full rpms. It did jerk once or twice...but very little , not like before.

I did a plug chop and we have a nice golden brown. So I'm going to get a 67 jet and see if that clears it up once and for all. The jerking between gears and at super high speed I think is just the way it goes with 9000 miles on the clutches (remember I got this bike from the 270 lb busdriver lady).

So once again thank you Joew...Donp, My cookie offer still stands. I'm still working on the small engine theory, but I can bake the hell out of a cookie.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

keep in mind that the air teperature is getting colder, so a larger jet is needed. 62 or 64 should be good for your setup during the summer months. but this time of year a 68 might be best. just do occasionalplug chops to see where your at during cold spells. cold air is more dense than warm air. that means an engine will run leaner.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

i'm still thinking clutch.. or at least a combination of clutch slipping in addition to a F/A mixture related problem... may as well throw in a possible ignition problem while we're at it.

You practically doubled the horsepower so any clutch problem would become more evident since that clutch is under more strain.. And the main jet changes do make the engine run stronger or weaker.. So a clutch slippage problem would be more or less obvious due to mixture tuning.

The plug chop is not showing signs of plug fouling due to mixture.. it's not wet or black.. If the thing actually is misfiring, perhaps ignition has a problem.. in addition to something else?

I'll be suprised if going from a 66 to 67 jet will clear it up but it'll be nice if it does.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

just to make that clearer in my own mind i'm gonna spell it out.

For the sake of argument, lets assume the clutch is slipping.

A stronger engine makes the clutch slip more... A weaker engine and the clutch slips less.

You put the 64 jet in there and the clutch slips and chatters more. This means the engine is actually running better and stronger.

hhmmm.. Am i thinking straight?

Question: How do you isolate and test just the clutch to see if it's chattering?

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

i do have to agree with joe.i think you have a clutch problem. i think you need to double check the fluid level, and maybe change it to type a suffix a if you can find it and if its not too late. there has been a lot of discussion on these a35 cork clutches and in the end, most of the discussions came up with type a suffix a and type f beong the best to use in the a35 trans. the type f however, is more abrasive and causes premature clutch wear. dexron III was making the cork mushy, and at times causing it to become unglued. do a search here on this subject, and on www.mopedriders.org.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Yeah, but from the take off, on the high rpm downhill, and the idle everything does better, runs smoother with the 66 jet. I know the clutch slips, my verification there is the 7000 miles put on them by the 270 lb bus driver lady...and the fact that it's slipped since I've got the bike. Before the new plug wire, cap, and plugs it slipped. Before the Airsal it slipped.

How hard is it to replace the clutchs (I know it's gonna cost)? I'd be able to tell they need replacing one I got a look at them right? Worn out cork, etc.

I'm just going to keep riding it for now, I jumped to quick when I bought this ped. I'll probably buy a new, younger Tomos in the spring and just rag this one as much as it will take it. That will be my ultimate test...jumping, wheelies, you name it, and if it last, and I learn more and more keeping it running, I'll know Tomos is a good, strong brand.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Okay, Okay, to much tranny fluid might have been some of the trouble. Letting some drain out helped the shifting between gears abit. But it's still a-jerkin-away at high speed. So since I've had this bike, when it's up on the stand and I give it full throttle it revs high for 2 seconds, drops away (bogs) for 3 seconds...revs 2, drops 3, revs 2, drops 3. It's very consistant in this pattern.

My friends 94 Tomos, when you do this, just revs high straight through.

So I'm wondering...does this sound like coil/ignition or is my plug just getting drowned by too big a jet. I'm leaning towards coil because the chop reads good and it does it no matter what jet I put in there.

Here I go answering my own questions again (guess I just need to type it out)...perhaps I'll put my friends coil on my bike and see if that fixes it.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

sounds lean to me. its hunting and surging. a bigger jet may be needed. try to choke it just a little while doing this and see if the surge goes away. if so, upjet.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

So how does this help explain it? I just went out to do the slight choke test that Donp suggested. It colder now, down to 30. I warmed the bike up some and went ripping down the stretch by the house where it always does this jerking at high rpm. Well it just screamed, no jerking. I couldn't get it to jerk. I've got the 64 jet back in it because it seemed to run better with it this morning. But all day it jerked at high speed with the 64 (same as 66, both chop a golden brown). Colder weather (though only 10 degrees different) would suggest leaner, thicker air, smaller jet right. Well I ran it earlier today without the air filter and it didn't make a difference.

So could cold weather, or engine, be effecting the ignition somehow? It's usually at night it runs best, I even try to get it to jerk at night with the headlight off...still rips.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

temperature should have no effect on ignition. it will only affect fuel/air ratio. when i told you to try the half choke idea, i meant to do it on the center stand as you had mentioned doing in your previous post. what i wanted you to do was rev the engine at full throttle til it started to surge as you explained that it had done in your last post. then while it was surging, close the choke some to see if the surging would go away. if it didnt, then you need to look at something else. but i'm not gonna tell you what els without the info that i'm looking for.

put your filter back in.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

I see, okay I'll try that first thing in the morn and see what happens. Thanks DonP.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Smaller jet probably, This morning on the way to work it was running extra rough. Well, I'd left my pet cock open last night which results in fuel leaking out of my carb (another problem, another day). Well this results in an extra oily air filter...less air...more jerking. Took the air filter off and right away I was off and running. I'm ordering 60-64 set of jets from Ike, and until I run the full gammit I'll quit bugging you all.

So to sum up my intial post (in all your words):

Jet size...

Watch the tranny fluid type and level...

Be sure the air filter is clean...

Like my old math teacher used to say "KIS the problem"

(keep it simple)

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

your carb is leaking gas??

that may be your problem. its hard to diagnose things without all the info. the 64 jet you had in there may be fine. but if your needle valve isnt shutting off the fuel flow when its supposed too, then its pumping gas up thru the breather tubes into the throat. you need to address all the problems rather than just buy parts and try different things.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Okay, I'll check it out today...see if the float is any good and the needle valve is setting. You guys have been so helpful I figure it's time to show you my girlfriend's tits...check 'em out.

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Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

hey thanks. ask her if she likes my cock.

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Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Nice cock Donp, she saw that and wore me out this morning.

So cleaned the carb extra special this afternoon and the float seems to set. I opened the pet cock and watched the intake for awhile and I had no leakage. It might of gotten stuck now and then in the past. Now that it's good and clean in there I'll hope it seats better. Most of my leakage comes from the bad seal in the float boal gasket...that why I usually turn the gas off when the engines off.

Fuel might build up in the opening, down low, against the air filter if the jet is to big and I'm getting alot of back spray. I'm going to see if it does better today with the filter back on. Your theory still hold strong...I'm beginning to think that when the needle would set funny I'd go messing with the jet, or the airfilter, and wiggle the needle back into place.

Still rollin'

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

the needle wont set funny. it is either worn out, has dirt stuck between it and the seat, or the float is leaking and not floating. usually its the needle is worn out. they have a rubber tip the wears. ive seen the brass seat in the carb wear out too. but its not replaceable. so i made a tool to resurface them.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

I had a couple Bings and that brass seat fitting popped right out. After some modifications the bike (Kriedler) needed more fuel and the float needle orifice was too small.. i was running out of fuel at high speed (bowl was emptying faster than fuel could be replenished) and finally traced it to that.

So i got lucky.. instead of enlarging the hole and praying for sucess i had another chance with a seat fitting from a spare carb.

Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

oops.. forgot to provide a pic of my ass for dmatthewb's old lady's enjoyment...

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Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

It looks alittle worn for sure. I think I can get my hands on another so I'll try it out. Guess I'll brake out some pussy pics.

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Re: New Airsal/same old jerkiness, clutch going? H

Don Pflueger /

the delortto seats are permanent. all you can get is the needle.

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