OT... Argue Better

I swore off the Riot thread for a while. Got back in. Said some stuff. I often take a position slightly more extreme than my actual beliefs for the sake of argument.

Potr Zebie went after me with some serious Straw Man arguments. Like most folks, I find this sort of thing annoying and wanted to address it.

There’s a YouTube series that covers that topic and much more. I found the videos delightful and want to share it.

Not trying to call just him out. Lots of people on OT let passions get the best of them and their reasoning slips. I insight some of it with my style of exaggeration or sarcasm (as do others).

I know every time Don posts, Bas will call him a homophobic piece of shit and tell him to fuck off. Can’t see that as a serious attempt at arguing and don’t expect the humorous banter to go away.

That’s Part of why I Love MA and the weird stuff that goes on in OT.

But, when someone is trying to make a serious attempt to counter another person’s position on something, it would be more productive to use good argument. Not Social Media, Politician, partisan style fallacies.

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Don’t know if anyone it into this stuff. But here’s one more and I’ll stop posting videos.

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Give it a fuckin' rest, pal.

Just because what you desire in society is laughably naive doesn't mean we don't know how to argue.

Have fun making new threads.

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I’m a little under-employed at the moment. Probably should find better things to do with my time.

You rattled my cage though. Don’t be surprised when it gets a response.

My “naive thinking” (see ad hominem above) is based on my logical reaction to my life of teaching and observation.

I could be wrong. I’d gladly have someone show me better with an argument I can listen to.

Your arguments are just what I called out. You want to attack a person, put words in their mouth, misrepresent their opinion and then attack the false premise. It isn’t productive. It’s manipulative and dirty. It works on simple minded folks but I won’t stand for it.

Argue like a gentleman or be a troll. Both are perfectly acceptable in the OT. But I feel like you have more to offer and are short changing me. If your knowledge and understanding are superior, don’t just kick dirt in my face, enlighten me please.

I’m being serious. I cited you as an example but this was pointed at everyone, including myself. I’m not competitive. I don’t need to win. But I do want to see the truth win. Not rhetoric.

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Papa, theres no reason for us to be fighting.

I was thinking about this because also stuck-at-home and it may come down to our thoughts on mankind in general.

I think you truly believe in mankind. Believe in our ability to transcend primal instincts and do what's morally right. And to be honest, it's a good viewpoint. Mankind HAS risen above our station on this planet to do remarkable things that have propelled us further than anyone could have imagined had they seen us a few hundred thousand years ago. If I had my way I'd wanna live in the very same society that you propose.

As for me, and for whatever reason, I tend to have a very pessimistic view of humanity in general. I believe we're generally selfish insects who when given the chance will take advantage of others (usually the less fortunate) for their own benefit. The times in history when "we" have accomplished great things, the Library of Alexandria for example, we tend to completely fucking destroy them not long after and smother lost knowledge and histories of once great societies amd cultures that we will NEVER rediscover.

I attribute this (rightly or wrongly its just my opinion) to bits of genetic code that remains in our lizard brains from back when we we're living in caves. Thick skulled, tiny brained hunter/gatherers only a small step up from primates. Dumb tribes smashing each other with rocks for prime cave real estate.

I don't wanna fight with you. Life sucks right now in general, we're locked inside our own country (unless you wanna visit Ankara), and things aren't gonna change for another year at least.

All we have right now are each other, and although our opinions of our fellow man may differ, you are my fellow American and brother.

Brap on, Papa.

Love ya

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Blaine- The artist formerly known as Plumber Crack "(OFMC)" /

Awww, how touching. I just peed my pants a little.

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Dirty30 Dillon /

Everytime someone says/types "brap" an angel throws up in its mouth.

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Blow me

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punkrock randy /

Everyone wants to be able to say the thing that gets through to somebody with a thick skull. This is true on this forum or in real life. You’ll never be on the same page as everyone. Who cares. I hope everyone’s having a good weekend anyways, even if I don’t agree all on here:-) I’ve been moving all weekend and that sux.

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ugh moving fucking sucks

good luck, man

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Thanks Man.

I definitely don’t want to fight. Sometimes stuff gets posted that touches a nerve or whatever and gets a quick response. Sometimes from passion more than reason.

My dad, who raised me as a single parent, is extraordinarily pessimistic. Nobody can have a nice thought around him without him shooting holes in it. He doesn’t HOPE for the best. He ONLY plans for the worst. It is exhausting.

Sure, being naively optimistic isn’t good. But we need people to create and hold a vision for a better future. We have to discuss or problems and make plans. Then argue the faults in the plans until we’ve distilled a workable solution.

I want to see the art of finding truth, like a philosopher, become a thing again. People should be able to have a discourse on hard topics and know that ego, bias, social preference or standing won’t pollute the outcome.

It can never happen on the grand scale if we can’t make it happen in small social groups.

All that said, this is the MA OT. If it wasn’t crazy and troll-y there’d be almost no point to it. I much rather see more nonsense than the political stuff that comes up. I just recommended we save the environment and solve food shortage issues by eating people. That’s what it’s all about.

Tons of respect for you. Everyone on here.

It’s 1538, I’m popping the top on a beer.

🍻

Cheers!

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> Papa _ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> He doesn’t HOPE for the best. He ONLY plans for

> the worst. It is exhausting.

This is great news for me! Apparently in the future I finally finish my time machine! It's me son!!!

Been trying to change for years, but this shit is nearly impossible. Out of 5 kids I'm the only one that cares about my parents. I have the inate ability to forsee every possible outcome of somthing but can only focus on the negative. Which has been reinforced by being right many times.

10 years ago when I became my mom n dads caregiver I never thought I'd end up here, 31, dad dead for two years and knowing that when momma passes. I am totally fucked with a ton of career experience that will land me homeless in the best case scenario. a hundred certifications that mean.mmm jack shit....in an expensive town, and my only way forward is to take care of other people's discarded parents, and grandparents..because for some reason.I care...I've been told that this is depression, but I think I'm totally happy. ha ha! I'd give anything to know what it feels like to not give a shit.

This covid thing hasn't done much for my anxiety.

Don't drink and go on ma it kids. Somthing might hit ya in a weird way. (edited)

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Aaron,

I had to count my fingers. My dad is one of six. So... we’re good there.

I am now 4 maaaaybe 5 beers in since my toast to Potr. I am a cuddly, lovey drunk. So I’m feeling nothing but good vibes toward you all right now.

So Aaron, my dad grew up poor. He was the oldest male with a drunk abusive father during the 50-60’s. He basically kicked his own dad out of the house. Joined the Air Force during the Viet Nam war to avoid getting drafted into the army when he ran out of money for school. He sent money home to provide for his siblings, for which he got no credit. He married my mother, a german woman he met while stationed here, who he loved forever until the day she died. She, however outgrew him quickly and split the marriage. He has faults that make him difficult to be around. But he is the most selfless loving person I can think of. His life has been full of hard knocks. He has always given more than he had to. I resented him when I was younger because his selflessness and obligation to do the right thing caused a lot of financial hardship that caused my sister and me to go without.

I don’t know why some people have to carry so much weight while others dance through life. Maybe it’s a genetic thing that creates that mindset. Some people feel a compulsion to deal with the shit that everyone else leaves behind. I don’t know.

It’s a tough row to hoe and thankless. But I respect you for your sacrifice. I am more of a chip off the block than I’d like to be. I want my kids to have the best from me. Not what’s left after the world around me bleeds me dry. But it is just hard to sit back and watch something fail when I know I can do the time, or overtime, to fix it.

Life can be hard. When it is, we need hard people to stand up and do what needs to be done. That happens in so many ways and places. You are one of those people. If you don’t hear appreciation often enough for it, I’m giving it to you now.

This thread could have gone downhill. I’m glad it didn’t. I’m now on video 15 of 46 on the Crash Course in Philosophy series. It is amazing. Im gonna make my kids watch it tonight. So much absolute good in there.

Prost!

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lol nerd

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this thread is fun.

I'm admittedly hooked on this garbage in here and some silly arguments, and in some rae occassins I actually feel like it makes a difference.

there is not arguing with don though, he's got almost nothing of value, so personally I chose to ignore him except when it's fun to engage, but I don't think bas tactic of reminding him he's an irrelevant bigot is any less useful.

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