MOPED ARMY

Whatever you do to increase performance... (big-bore kit or otherwise) ... is pretty much going to decrease reliability.

The more you use the performance increase.. the more that the longevity and reliability goes down ... there is no free lunch Wayne.

The manufacturers have been playing this game for a while... they pick their parts to give the best performance within an acceptable amount of reliability and longevity ... you step outside their choices and you almost always reduce rel. and long.

You've also discovered the other thing they strive for... wide powerband .. (the range of useful RPM) .. when you go for more peak HP... the low end performance fades.

To give any more details.. somebody would have to be familiar with your bike/motor.

I think I will add a kevlar drive belt and the delta clutch. it claims that the delta will eliminate the drop that I am experiencing off the starting line.... and the kevlar belt.... if the bike is already open, why not throw it in....?

I'll also try to avoid going over 9000 rpm's.......because it 'redlines' at 8000..... I figure 1k isn't going to kill anything.

I think I might start adding a little oil to the mix...even though it is injected.

Thanks for your advice, Fred---- sound as always.... I guess it's the difference between a reliable ride and a tricked out vehicle... I want to have a foot on each side... and with the pipe, I'm already getting too many RPM's.

Maybe I should just accept the rings will cook, eventually, and then replace them with better ones if there are any. This scooter is a toy, so I can live with the fact that I'll always have to have some work done. It sucks, cause I don't know how to do the work, yet.

Like an SUV... or off road vehicle... yes, you might have 4wd, and full offroad capability, but if you do some serious off-roading, you're going to be replacing parts.

Even a mountain biker... if you really give your bike a constant pounding, it just goes without saying that your rims are bound to warp out. and... you replace them, so you can continue beating on the new rims....

Thanks--- and I'm still listening if anyone else has anything, and how about some stories of summer adventures?

-Wayne

Wayne,

I've never worked on a Kymco, but after playing around with lots of different parts on my Yamaha Zuma this is what I've found works and what doesn't

I found the malossi multivar improved my top speed and take off. Because the variator is reshaped it closes and opens more. This allows you to get a wider gearing range. I don't know if this works on a Kymco but on my Zuma it was a huge improvement. ~6mph It brought me from 43-49mph.

When you change anything on a variator scooter you have to change transmission parts to compensate.

When you added your pipe you also should have added a stiffer clutch spring. The stiffer spring will give you back, your low end, and make it so you have constant power throughout the range, not just from 15-45mph. If you put in too heavy a spring it will comprimise your top speed. Many scooter pipes come with lighter rollers and a stiffer spring although some dont.

Don't bother with the kevlar belt...yes its stronger but don't bother to buy one until your stock belt breaks. They make no signifiant difference in speed in top speed or low end.

And the clutch may make a difference for you but replace the springs first (they're cheap $8 @50cc.nl)

Get the Yellow and Red ones.

And ask the dealer if they gave you a bigger main jet with the pipe. You don't want to seize it and I don't know if you can do a plug chop on a water cooled???

Hope this helps a little

Matt

Wayne,

There is probably an easy way to get to the spark plug. Kymco wouldn't make you pull body panels just to replace a fouled spark plug. Check it out or ask the dealer.

And as long as the dealer you bought the bike from is doing the work, I wouldn't worry too much about seizing it. If you do its their problem.

And get the springs first they alone make a huge difference.

Good Luck!

Matt

Fred-- You're right. I haven't laid down on the ground yet, but you can't see a plug anywhere. I'll check the owners manual.

I also assume that my warranty has been voided.... it was only 6 months, or x miles, whichever comes first. with the short Maine riding season, I think I'll see 6 mos without a breakdown, so not so worried about that.

I don't mind doing a few hundred dollars work each summer... but I don't want an unreliable maintenence nightmare.

I think going over 9 or 10k for too long would be bad. I know when I've tried to keep highway speeds, the bike needs to stay redlined at 9 or 10.... I think that's bad, unless you're just going to the next exit.....

Thanks for the advice. The reason I want to do the clutch AND belt and spring all at once, is because I pay 'em an hour labor just to get into the project, then whatever it takes to complete. If I add springs...then add a clutch...then add kevlar belt...

that's 42.00 + 42.00 + 42.00 just for labor, vs getting it all in one shot... plus, the 42.00 is an initial charge.... it could take an hour or more for some projects... if the bike is open, adding the belt makes sense.... then it won't ever break at a bad time...

Plus, adding the clutch and belt is the last part of the "Non 72cc" mods for this machine. My bike will have the best performance for this 50cc model.....Hopefully, the rings will hold up, and I'll find out where my plug is hiding for some chops.

Maybe the liquid cooling will help the bike and rings at those higher RPM's.... I would think so... the vents by your hands pump out a lot of hot air...

Thanks

-Wayne

Forum Readers:

Read from the bottom up. I didn't bother to cut and paste the responses into the proper sequence.

I'll add his final response when I get it.

-Wayne

-----Original Message-----

From: Broderick, Wayne R

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:09 PM

To: 'P F McDonnell'

Subject: RE: Modification of Super-9

Thanks for the reply! Your E-mail had a lot more useful and important info than the brief phone call I had. Although, the English-sounding fellow was very helpful as well.

Another bit of advice, when you have a moment. The only reason I did not want to upgrade to the 70cc kit was because I was worried about having to replace my rings every summer. I saw the bike hit 11,000 rpms while zooming down a hill (with just the technogas and rollers)..... and I was worried that the kit would provide even higher RPM's. I'm not abusive on the engine, and we do have a lot of hilly areas around us.

I am less concerned with "Top Speed" as a really quick bike, that "jerks" forward when you rev it. I want the raw-low end power.... I noticed a photo of a guy who was actually lifting the front end up....wheelie style. I'm assuming he must have really strong clutch springs and is geared for a high power take-off. Being able to do a smoke show or wheelie.... VERY cool for a modded scooter.

So, the last bit of advice I need is about the "ring-wear" on the 70cc kit, and what I will need to add if I do opt into the kit.

I was thinking that the liquid cooling would help a lot in keeping the rings from cooking. I have almost 800$ to spend on mods, and since I'm not doing my own work, I want to add everything all at once, to keep the labor costs lower.

If I buy the 70cc kit, what other parts will I absolutely need to add. Your bike sounds very sweet, and I'd like to trick mine out in similar fashion. I was also thinking about adding some parts that aren't "essential" to combine with the kit. The next trip to the shop will be the last one I make for a long time, so I want to take care of everything that I need (or might need) with one shot.

Thanks again. I've met a lot of people locally who have stock Kymco's and I tell them all about your website.

Yours,

Wayne

-----Original Message-----

From: P F McDonnell [mailto:mcdonn19@bellsouth.net]

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:43 AM

To: 'Broderick, Wayne R'

Subject: RE: Modification of Super-9

Hello Wayne,

I am driving a Super 9 now with all the goodies and love it.

I do not feel that the Malossi variator is worth the money for what it gives in performance. It costs 81.44 and will not give performance like adding a cylinder kit which for some reason is not much more expensive for what you get out of it. The variator does last far longer and smoothes out the range of power compared to the stock unit.

What you really need is more stall on the clutch which is what the Malossi/Polini ( 89.62) clutches do. Another cheaper alternative is to change the springs (15.00) in your existing clutch and perhaps going a little lighter on the roller weights. The Tecnigas rollers are 6.5 gram and for your weight perhaps 6.0 gram would work better.

The rear torque drive spring can also be changed to a yellow which has near the same effect as changing the rollers and lessens the drop in rpm at 40 mph. This spring helps a lot if you are in hilly regions.

I am unfortunately out of the Kevlar belts but your stock one should be fine until I get my next order.

Hope this helps.

Steve

-----Original Message-----

From: Broderick, Wayne R [mailto:WBroderick@unum.com]

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 7:40 AM

To: 'mcdonn19@bellsouth.net'

Subject: Modification of Super-9

Hello. I need advice before I order parts. Here is the situation:

I have a stock super-9. I just added the technigas and included roller weights. The bike is Brand New, under 1k miles.

I DO NOT want to add the upgrade kit, piston or cylinder, however, I do want the bike to run at the peak performance for a 50cc machine.

The Super-9 has been derestricted, and will see 50mph or so. My wife's people 50 has a lower top speed, and no pipe, and frequently, she is able to take off much faster, and sometimes I can't catch up to her.....

I plan to add the delta clutch and Kevlar drive belt. The bike is still very new, and I am not adding the upgrade kit. Will the performance variator make any difference on a new machine? I weigh 220 lbs, and I notice that the bike 'bogs' before 12mph, but then takes off very fast, and then slows down again around 40, but keeps accelerating slowly, until it hits top speed.

I know I want the delta and kevlar....your web page seemed to suggest that the variator was only good for the upgrade kit, or for when your stock variator gets worn out.

Please explain if I need or should add the variator, as well as any other suggestions to make my bike run the best without doing the actual 72cc kit.

Thank you in advance. Your web site is great, although the MIDI music on the front page is awful.

Please respond as soon as possible, as I want to order the parts I need ASAP.

Thank you very much.

Wayne Broderick

Flex Technician

Fred--- Thanks. I knew I had to be missing something....

I kept thinking, if the pipe alone is pushing 11,000, what about the big bore...!?!

So, rather than giving the 50cc a constant pounding, I can do more work with less RPM's.... so I shouldn't worry so much about hitting "Mega RPM's" because there will be power to spare.

Fred-- You're great to have around. You've helped me a lot with this Scooter project alone.

Thanks!

-Wayne

I do try to pay attention... I loved when I first learned how performance pipes boost power...... And, I'm kind of embarassed that I didn't realize that a performance pipe would naturally jack up the rpm's while a piston kit would increase the power per stroke, thus eliminating the need for the super high rpm's. Duhhhhh. Sometimes you just don't connect the dots.

I've been reading the moped posts for a long time, and I read all the technical ones, too. BUT, I don't see much about clutches, clutch springs, variator weights, torque springs...etc. these things aren't Kymco-specific, but I haven't seen anyone replacing the clutch springs on their Puch, and not many mopeds have variators... only the real good ones.

I'm not really disagreeing with you-- because I haven't used the forum search to look for roller weights, etc....

Being a scooter owner yourself, you must agree that a lot of the mods I'm considering (other than the pipe and 70cc kit) are somewhat outside the normal "moped" mods.

On my QT-50's, yes... making them fast would involve a LOT of research about tuning, porting, adjusting, honing, etc... because that's really the only way to mod out a QT... being good at small engines...

on my Kymco, I'm going for pure "Bolt on" horsepower and transmission. No tuning, no honing, just a plug chop now and then. That's all I want, is a high performance "Toy" scooter that does 0-55 in a heartbeat.....I know it's not a "Toy" and I could get killed... but by "Toy" I mean something I don't put any effort into, but get lots of great results.

I will learn how to do scooter repairs... that's a given, but on this new one, I'm not touching the insides for awhile. Let someone else do the mods, and I can have all the fun. Although, fine tuning the roller weights is probably a personal preference, and I ought to figure out that part.

Back to the QT-50.... Now, If I could get that to whip russ's bike... that would be hot stuff. It sees 25-28.... but I hear that those and the PA-50's are similar, and I would love to get a QT up to 35ish.... that would be something I would be REALLY proud of.... and it would have to be done by tuning, porting, cleaning and using smarts....

Bah, anyway, that's my rant about modding scooters vs. mopeds... and why I agree that the forum is based on small 2-stroke engines, but disagree that there is a lot of info about "scooter" based mods, like variator, clutch, all the stuff earlier in this post and in the thread.

Sincerely Yours

Wayne

Here's the final E-mail from the Moped Hospital. I cannot say enough about their service and support. He was very very nice, even though I was asking some kinda dumb questions (like assuming the big bore kit would add MORE RPM's)

If you have a Kymco, and you want it to be "all that it can be" please, take my advice and give these guys a try. I'm amazed that a small engine shop had such incredible service.

Anyway, here's the paste of his final response.....very nice guy, and I'm ordering the parts he suggests today.

Wayne,

The worry about ring wear and engine life should not be a concern if the work is done right. There should be no reason to replace rings every year if good synthetic oil is used, air filter cleaned and the carb jetting is correct. I have air cooled Cobras running around down here that have over 16,000 km on them and are still going strong. All they need are plugs,belts,rollers and tires.

I honestly have seen modified engines last longer! Mainly because you will be at 35-40 mph at half throttle or less. The engine simply is not working as hard to reach the same speed.

Malossi makes a cylinder that is cast iron and 2 ring piston that will work just fine for you and Airsal which uses 1 ring and is aluminum. I personally use the aluminum because of the better port timing that gives greater performance.

For what you are looking for the Malossi would be the best option with the stock exhaust or the Next pipe. The carb needs to be changed so everything is pre jetted for the kit. You can use the stock carb but the mechanic really needs to understand jetting to get it right.

10,000 rpm is not much for a small l/c 2 stroke. Our a/c race bike is at 13000 all the time and no problems.

I would recommend:

Malossi l/c cylinder 130.00

Stiffer rear clutch springs set 15.00

Next exhaust- you already paid for it

17 mm carb with auto choke 89.00

7.0-7.5 gram rollers 8.99 a set

Yellow rear torque spring 12.00

I am quoting dealer price so please do not repeat.

Ernest the gentleman you spoke to has a Malossi cylinder on his Super 9 but has the R/S exhaust and the 17mm carb. Nothing else was changed. Not a single problem and it has been 3 months. We usually test everything for 1500-2000 km before we sell it. Last thing we need is the product or our name getting a bad rap.

No pressure, just think it over. I still feel just changing the rollers and or the rear spring will help you now.

Steve

P.S I hate the music also but the big cheese will not change it. He likes the “Island” sound.

Matt, I do think you're right about the springs and rollers....

BUT, I'm not taking any chances.

My wife (on an unmodified air cooled people-50) has been passing me on hills lately. she laughed so hard yesterday she was actually crying. This happens every single day. I think the amount of her laughter depends on the size of my frown as she passes me.

She started calling my Super-9 the "trumpet" because of the sound the pipe makes and she says it only goes as fast as a "marching band".

I can't put up with that any longer. My bike cost more, looks faster and has been modified, and has liquid cooling. Still, she makes me look slow on her people-50. I can take her on a straight or downhill with no trouble, but she gets me on initial acceleration and hill climbing every time.

So, I just called the local dealer and ordered:

Malossi l/c cylinder

Stiffer rear clutch springs set

17 mm carb with auto choke

7.0-7.5 gram rollers

Yellow rear torque spring

I should have all the parts installed by the weekend of the 17th, at the latest. They are out of kevlar belts, so I'll wait until next season to replace the clutch, the variator and belt with performance replacements.

Roller Question: Do I need two sets, or am I getting the extra set for fine tuning purposes?

I just called my local Kymco dealer (Roberts Powersports, Gorham, Maine) and he is ordering those parts from you today. I only ordered a single set of the 7.5, assuming the heavier weight would be best. I want to call him back, ASAP, and add those parts to the order..... I totally trust your advice, and if I need to get the 7.0's I want them.

I'll add the variator when I add the Kevlar--- that's cool with me.

Thanks Again, Steve. Don't worry about the prices, I'll keep a lid on it, and they're not too expensive either, so a bit of a markup isn't going to kill me. I'm pretty sure they charged me the same price on the Technogas exhaust as was shown on your website.

How many different pipes are available? I have the technogas, and you keep mentioning "Next" and "R/S" but all I saw on the parts page was the technogas.... maybe the techno is the same as the "Next"?? and what does the R/S stand for??

No hurry on the answer, I've ordered all those parts, and if I need to swap out the pipe for more bottom end, I can do that next season, or when I put the bike up for the winter. Any further info you provide, is just so I know more about the bike and what performance options there are out there (like how many different kymco pipes are available...?)

Your advice alone is worth whatever the price markup is....heck, they might not even mark it up. I got a big fat settlement, because some old guy ran me and my moped over last august...so parts prices aren't that big of a deal. My right leg was almost torn off, but it grew back okay enough---! Lots of gory battle scars.

My current plan is to wait for the parts you listed to arrive, have them installed, ride the bike for a month or so, and then report back to you with perfomance details. I think I'll be more than happy, and any future mods will be fairly minor. Adding a different pipe for more bottom end sounds nice.....but I can take care of that later on...

Regarding the wife:

Although she makes fun of me, and gives me a hard time, I think deep down she feels bad that her people-50 is beating up my super-9. I'm a moped and scooter fanatic... I LOVE 50cc engines. She's never had a bike before, and she gets the biggest kick out of leaving my super-9 in the dust. She'll be glad that my bike goes fast.... she knows that'll make me happy!

I won't mention the prices you supplied at all, and Roberts Powersports in Gorham Maine says you guys are awesome.

My nerw perf pipe ruined my bottom end acceleration, it ruined my upper mid-range acceleration too.

the only time my bike is "Kick Ass" as far as power goes is between 10 and 30mph.

anything outside that range, and it's slow as crap. In traffic, with frequent stops, my wife has been ROASTING me on her stock Kymco, unmodified, entry level "People-50".

Hills, and frequent stops kill the performance on my bike... if you hit the 'powerband' you come up on the car in front too fast....if you drop out of the powerband, you have nothing for acceleration....or torque. The "Super-9" isn't as "super" as I thought. That pipe really messed up my performance.

But...now for the good part. We took a ride to her mom's today. LOTS of long straights, slow sloping hills, and no lights or traffic. As usual... she whipped past me.... I caught up in the "powerband" then, fell behind as she zoomed up to 45ish (max speed).

Slowly, but surely, my bike crept up.... 40.....45......50.....55......speedo buried.... tachometer still climbing slowly.... had to be up over 60.

When she got to her moms, I was parked, and stretching.....

"How fast were you going?"

"Dunno...speedo buries just past 50...."

"you had to be going at least 65...", said the wife..."Mine held steady at 45..."

So, I guess the pipe is good after all. Just not for up and down city hills or steep hills. Even if I'm buried on the speedo, I'll see it drop way down, to 40 is the hill is too steep.... not enough torque (I think) for my fat ass.

Matt,

I'll do some testing today, and note the tach readings.

I know that at 4000 rpms-4200 rpms I can hold the bike in place with my feet.

at least at "initial" engagement, it's about 4300 before the bike starts moving. I had a nice fish jump right out of my tank last night...died on the floor...I gotta run to the bank and petstore...get some guards to prevent it....maybe replace the fish

I've got the wiring diagrams for the QT.... I'll post them today (yeah yeah....I know I keep saying that) I thought the manual was 25 or 30 pages...it's like 43!! the scanner got pissy with me so I went out riding..

I was up watching the fish at 3 am, wife found him this mornin around 10 am...

It's probably that bastard chicago cat that messed with simon's moped. taking a bus to get my fish because I was talking smack about him in the forum.