Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Alright, so i bought and puch murray the other week for $150 and it came with some extras. A Hercules M2 frame that has seen better days but is structurally sound (including a few extra parts) and two Sachs 504/1B engines. Ive finished work on the Murray, now i just have this Hercules staring at me... I understand that the 504/1B is THEE slowest of the Sachs engines and im not gonna get much performance out of the thing... but i just cant help myself- I wanna build it.

The problem with this bike is that im not finding a lot of information, or even close up photos to answer some of my questions. What it needs is a new headlight assembly, a rear brake assembly, an ignition coil, wiring, an exhaust, and a shit ton of bolts. I feel like i can do this fairly cheap... I basically got the thing for free anyways so why not go for it....?

Firstly, do yall think this is just a bad idea and waste of money? ha

Secondly, the snags im seeing are few very specific to model parts that im not going to find anywhere (mostly the rear brake assembly has this weird way of fixing to the arm that im just not going to find) ...so im just gonna have to rig some shit up. Also the wiring that isnt making sense to me... (There are only two wires that come out of the stator on this model of engine, black and yellow... whats up with that and how the hell do i wire this thing?)

Thirdly, does anyone have a Sachs 1D that i can buy? ha! But seriously, I do want to get around 30mph on it...i know that its rated at around 25, but I got my Batavus to go 32 so im confident I can get there. But does anyone have experience with these engines and any cost effective ways of getting it there without swapping the whole thing out?

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Now that I’m older and have a family with financial obligations, I look at a project like this first from a cost/benefit perspective.

How much actual money do you have for it? What budget are you willing to make? Start a complete inventory list and prices for parts you need to buy/find.

If I’m satisfied that i can spend the cash and get another runner out of it - green light.

If I don’t have the money but really want to rebuild the thing - hold off and scrounge for free or cheap parts to get closer. Eventually the cost to complete makes sense.

Or, it just isnt meant to be and you re-home your pet... I mean moped.

Your other questions, I’m not in a great place to say much. Get a digital or dial caliper to measure things. If you spend some time “feeling” out your machine and search for parts to replace what fits in the holes, you dont need specific info for make and model. Sure, it’s easier to order a part number. But, I still measure and check specs before buying anything; for peace of mind.

There’s nothing wrong with having at least one slow moped. Good for teaching or sharing and it will probably never break once its put together. Something to consider.

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

> andy R Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Alright, so i bought and puch murray the other week for $150 and it came

> with some extras. A Hercules M2 frame that has seen better days but is

> structurally sound (including a few extra parts) and two Sachs 504/1B

> engines. Ive finished work on the Murray, now i just have this Hercules

> staring at me... I understand that the 504/1B is THEE slowest of the

> Sachs engines and im not gonna get much performance out of the thing...

> but i just cant help myself- I wanna build it.

>

> The problem with this bike is that im not finding a lot of information,

> or even close up photos to answer some of my questions. What it needs is

> a new headlight assembly, a rear brake assembly, an ignition coil,

> wiring, an exhaust, and a shit ton of bolts. I feel like i can do this

> fairly cheap... I basically got the thing for free anyways so why not go

> for it....?

>

> Firstly, do yall think this is just a bad idea and waste of money? ha

>

> Secondly, the snags im seeing are few very specific to model parts that

> im not going to find anywhere (mostly the rear brake assembly has this

> weird way of fixing to the arm that im just not going to find) ...so im

> just gonna have to rig some shit up. Also the wiring that isnt making

> sense to me... (There are only two wires that come out of the stator on

> this model of engine, black and yellow... whats up with that and how the

> hell do i wire this thing?)

>

> Thirdly, does anyone have a Sachs 1D that i can buy? ha! But seriously,

> I do want to get around 30mph on it...i know that its rated at around

> 25, but I got my Batavus to go 32 so im confident I can get there. But

> does anyone have experience with these engines and any cost effective

> ways of getting it there without swapping the whole thing out?

Couple things. If the frame is setup for a 504 you wont fit a 505/1d without cutting and welding new mounts in. The 504 doesn't use an integrated pedal shaft like the 505 and is much shorter because of it.

You can likely get a rear brake assembly from Dos Cycles as they have quite the warehouse to pull parts from.

I'd sooner recommend turning the frame into a Sachs/Puch build. Get a puch motor on there and you can use regular front and rear brakes on your standard italian wheels. Those hercules frames do have a nice look to them and I used to have one that I sold off because I didn't want to deal with the project.

Time and cash can make anything happen, as said above, it just depends on what you want to spend. I'm building a watercooled 505/2d with a airsal kit and I'm positive I wont get my money back out of it if I tried to sell. That being said, I wanted to build this crazy project and managed to order everything before the wife and I decided to buy a house. If I thought about it now, never would happen, too big of a waste.

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Just do it. Scrounge parts and try to keep the cost down. I put together a junk Westlake and I'm still having fun with it. I'm putting together a junk Balboa too, this one gets paint. Here's a hint, you'll always have more money into it than you thought you would. Share a picture of it in its current state.

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Oh man, thanks for the advice y'all! Really appreciate it!

Honkycat, I did make a complete inventory list and it brought me to bout $250, since I have a few parts laying around already that will cut costs. Those will put me at junky stock...nothing fancy. I'd say i want to be at around that much to maintain peace of mind on it. But given the current financial climate of things, I always have this thought in the back of my mind that I must be able to sell all builds i invest in... just in case things get dicey. Im just not sure id be able to sell it if I didnt paint the thing and really go the extra mile on it. Hard to sell slow bikes these days...

Faultymechanics, yeah the 1D thought is more of a pipe dream. I would have to sink so much cash and time into this thing to make that work... Let alone trying to find some complete 1D for less than $400...woof. I really like the puch idea and love working with the e50 - so easy to find parts. But yeah, that would likely end up costing quite a bit too... hmmm. I'll definitely look into Dos Cycles!

Themechanic, I went to a junk yard yesterday and found a rear wheel that i can adapt. I like the thrill of putting together something kinda junky and low cost. And I really do love how the paint on this frame is already super thrashed... maybe just building the whole thing junk style would suit it instead of hitting Treats super hard.

Attached is a photo of its current state lol...yep... rough. The rust looks bad but its mostly surface. Keep in mind, i do have the pedals, a carb, that rear wheel i spoke of, handle bars and controls, chains, cables, petcock, and a tore up seat.

As im writing this my girlfriend is sitting across from me glaring, knowing what im about to do with our money ugh. Mopeds..... its a sickness.

8E789C46-E1C8-4387-9846-D25B9C2DB2DA.jpeg

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

I just realized...if you run a 504 you'll be using a normal rear brake system, not the coaster brake. That may make things easier for you.

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Totally! yeah i just need this style of brake plate... see how it attaches to the swingarm? I may just have to fabricate my own thing. ugh.

hercules__m2_504_m_moped_fichtel_u0026_sachs_sachs_5041_b_1978_2_lgw.jpeg

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

> andy R Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Totally! yeah i just need this style of brake plate... see how it

> attaches to the swingarm? I may just have to fabricate my own thing.

> ugh.

I think you can run a regular italian wheel with a leleu brake plate and just completely bypass that weird setup. The swingarm has a brake tab on the left side correct?

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

So it looks like its just that odd one hanging down on the left that you see in the last photo, and then the chain tensioner slot on the right... nothing else in there really. I guess i just have to make that tab on the left work somehow...

IMG_4436.jpeg

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

That has potential. I saved a similar Westlake and now I'm saving this.

20200904_132227.jpg

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Here's the now running Westlake.

20200503_142945.jpg

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

> andy R Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> So it looks like its just that odd one hanging down on the left that you

> see in the last photo, and then the chain tensioner slot on the right...

> nothing else in there really. I guess i just have to make that tab on

> the left work somehow...

Well damn...that sucks. Definitely talk to dos cycles though.

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

I recently used a puch rear on a 504 bike, it works with some spacing. you can also shove a bolt thru the swingarm for a brakeplate stop if the existing one isn't gonna work

The 504/1b isn't a dealbreaker. it's slow but slow for the cylinder carb and pipe, replacing all those is pretty typical if you wanna get anything quick out of it so, meh.

Personally I'd be trying to find a D jug & cylinder just cuz the intake is easier and it's better ported, then porting that, pipe it up with some hack/weld shit and dump an old take-off 14:12 SHA or 14 bing on there, aim to hit mid 30s and call it a day.

Or go with the Airsal kit and a new pipe and a 15 roundbing, push it to low 40s pretty easily but that's money you don't get as much return from.

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Those are great! Is the other bike an M4 or something?

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Im definitely gonna try that bolt trick for the stop! I actually found that strange brake plate, but i doubt it'll even fit this rear wheel since its not the original lol, think the OD is a little bigger. Yeah, If i can scrape some more money together i may try and find a D jug and cylinder...those things fetch almost as much as the Airsal kit, dang. I have a Dellorto SHA 14 that ive been trying to use forever, so ill try n work with that. Thanks for the advice!

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Aren't a jug and cylinder exactly the same thing ?

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

♣Slew Foot♣ /

Cylinder + head =

Jug

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

> ♣Slew Foot♣ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Cylinder + head =

>

> Jug

Maybe it's just a moped thing .

In every other instance cylinders can be referred to as jugs . Head not included .

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

Just a couple more things if anyone has some guidance...

Firstly, Im having a really hard time identifying the engine im working with. Ive been on myrons and that sachs engine forum to narrow it down, but it doesnt seem to add up. It's a 504/1B engine, but the jug has some discrepancies: It doesnt say if its 25km or 40km, the exhaust header OD is 26mm, and the intake is 14mm, piston says 37.98 (which i think most do other than "D")... Which doesnt line up with the engines listed...

Like i said, i have two engines and the one i am not using looks to be the super restricted model with the tiny 12mm intake and bing 10 etc... So maybe whoever had it before me got this second engine to get a little more speed out of it? Just wish i knew exactly what i was working with. If the jug is anything but a B, im into it and probably wont go for a kit.

Second thing is this wiring... Ive never worked on a Sachs before so it's a bit confusing for me. There are only 2 wires coming out of the stator: one black and one yellow, and then theres the ignition wire too. All wiring diagrams ive found for 504s or 505s have more than two wires out of the stator...usually three or four im seeing? So im guessing the ignition coil is built in? the yellow wire is headlight/taillight and black is kill switch? Saw something on treats thats similar...

Sorry if these are dumb questions. Working with this Sachs is really making me appreciate my e50 and Morini M1... ugh

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Screen Shot 2020-10-20 at 12.12.42 PM.png

Re: Hercules M2 build...advice/help please...

> andy R Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry if these are dumb questions. Working with this Sachs is really

> making me appreciate my e50 and Morini M1... ugh

there are like dozens of different stock puch pipes, cylinders, heads intakes and carbs, yet somehow 4 speed designations for sachs seems to big this unapproachable challenge.

I can't tell why really, maybe just that it's easier to swap them all? Or you're just assuming you'd kit it anyway, but not so for sachs? whatever, it's pretty manageable - you got the 1hp maxi, kit it.

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