Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

I keep breaking the piston rings every single time I buy new ones and either break them while installing on piston or after they are on and I’m trying to get the piston to go into the cylinder with the rings on... what am I doing wrong? Sachs 505/d

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

♣Slew Foot♣ /

Piston rings before wrist pin.

Put rings in cylinder before the wrist pin cover around crank so it don't fall in.

When placing piston squeeze the rings at 830 and 230 there's a bevel on back of the one side squeeze so the pin gaps vanish then bevel side first push and twigle it should go in a little oil in cyl helps...

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Thanks, first things first, I got my piston stuck inside the cylinder I think by banging on the exhaust trying to get it in place, stupid I know. Anyways it’s wedged in there pretty good and I can’t get it out, wtf should I do??? May need to take the engine off. Pic attached.

Also if you could answer this question to help me understand the engine a little better:

Does the piston retract back and fourth through the canal that connects to the cylinder? Or does it just circulate within the cylinder’s open area? Is it possible that within my “upgrade from 505/1a >> 505/1d” adventure that I am using a piston that is too big for the 505/1d cylinder that I bought from this site and thought was the right size ?” Tryna get this upgrade done !! You’re the bomb appreciate if you could drop your knowledge !!

530B4C71-5BC8-4380-8CCC-D1C6FD0AC07B.jpeg

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Yes the Piston moves back and fourth, we don't know if you have the right Piston. Did you measure before you bought it?

.If it's stuck I imagine you diddnt get the ring opening over the locating pin in the groove. Now it's all wedged In there.

Did you gap and file your rings before installing? They don't come pre filed for your cylinder....so the ring could be too long, if once it compressed the ends could be touching=bad...and expanded into a port window

Hopefully the cylinder isn't fucked now and all gauged up from it getting stuck. Sounds like you tried to skip a few steps...measuring, ring gapping, etc

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

♣Slew Foot♣ /

If it's a d crank and an a piston it needs a divot in the piston skirt so the crank can get to bdc otherwise the crank will stop before bdc because the d piston is shorter or has the wrist lower than the a. A u shaped gouge on the intake side. My d with an a piston had the gouge in it before l got it.

If you got the stock overbore it's 40.5mm

It won't fit without a rebore and hone.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

What would banging on the exhaust have anything to do with the cylinder slipping over the piston ?

Is the exhaust still connected to the cylinder ?

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

I bought it from a guy here along with they cylinder and longer crank he said they were all the D parts for the upgrade from an A. Attached a pic of the box it came in. This is my first build! I never learned about Filing rings and gapping them etc I guess I’m in over my head which is why I’m coming here for advice (edited)

0FBF1125-2C95-4FEC-97AC-D7BFA770962B.jpeg

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> P D Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> What would banging on the exhaust have anything to do with the cylinder

> slipping over the piston ?

>

> Is the exhaust still connected to the cylinder ?

Exactly, exhaust was connected to cylinder at the time.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> ♣Slew Foot♣ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> If it's a d crank and an a piston it needs a divot in the piston skirt

> so the crank can get to bdc otherwise the crank will stop before bdc

> because the d piston is shorter or has the wrist lower than the a. A u

> shaped gouge on the intake side. My d with an a piston had the gouge in

> it before l got it.

>

> If you got the stock overbore it's 40.5mm

>

> It won't fit without a rebore and hone.

Should be a D crank, piston, and cylinder. I posted a picture of the box it came in. I shouldn’t need to do anything to the piston to get it to fit in the cylinder right? It would go in without the rings before it got stuck but it only got stuck because I banged on the exhaust while it was attached to the cylinder still.. still have all my A parts, what’s your advice after I get it unstuck?

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Dirty30 Dillon /

Banging on the exhaust will not effect the way a piston slides in and out. It's a motor, not a music box.

More than likely, you had a broken ring in there and when you were jostling the motor you sent the fragment into a port, which is now a door stop.

I hate to say it, but this is a nightmare with Sachs motors, where you can't pop the head off to clear/whack the piston out.

Most likely getting this apart will result in needing to replace most, if not all, of the parts.

If you've never worked on a small engine before, you should buckle up and just do some reading and research about the motor, including looking through Sachs service manuals and exploded parts diagrams. Definitely did yourself dirty with this muck up.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

1) There are different bores of pistons and rings. The quickest piston check is a drop test, you can kindof do this with sachs, though less easily cuz 1 piece cylinder/head. no rings, drop the piston in. should slide smoothly in and out. not too much tolerance. simple check. quickest ring check is gap. stick em in. too small wont stay put and will fall in. too big the ends of the rings overlap or no gap.

2) There are different lengths of piston. Sachs "A" piston wont work in a "D" jug. (Crank doesnt matter but cylinder and piston must match) Sounds like you're all D, if so ignore this one

3) This shoulda been #1. make sure your ring gap is matched up with the pin when you slide it in. otherwise your'e screwed - this is 99% of why people break rings.

4) There are different ring types. make sure it fits in the groove and that the ring gap-type matches the pin type.

I suspect you had missed the pin when putting it in. but wanted to include the other options you may have the right size but wrong type of rings etc/

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Banging on the exhaust will not effect the way a piston slides in and

> out. It's a motor, not a music box.

>

> More than likely, you had a broken ring in there and when you were

> jostling the motor you sent the fragment into a port, which is now a

> door stop.

>

> I hate to say it, but this is a nightmare with Sachs motors, where you

> can't pop the head off to clear/whack the piston out.

>

> Most likely getting this apart will result in needing to replace most,

> if not all, of the parts.

>

> If you've never worked on a small engine before, you should buckle up

> and just do some reading and research about the motor, including looking

> through Sachs service manuals and exploded parts diagrams. Definitely

> did yourself dirty with this muck up.

First off bud, If you’ve got nothing productive to add why post at all?

Look the way the jug was at the time it wasn’t secure to the bottom end, there were no rings even on the piston at the time, as the post title suggest, I broke them trying to get them on the piston. the exhaust was attached to the jug and I kicked the exhaust without realizing this and just wedged the piston in there the wrong way. I’ve spent COUNTLESS hours learning about this engine before trying this upgrade, and you know well as anyone I hope there’s not exactly a wealth of knowledge readily available.

Literally my first build ever. I made a dumb mistake kicking it, I know that’s what wedged it in there because I actually do have a good head on my shoulders believe it or not, and I’ll have to figure out how to get it off myself. I was just asking for any advice someone might have. If I bent the crank or damaged the jug so be it... I have spares or I’ll have to buy some more parts.

Think about whether what you’re adding to the conversation is productive or just being an ass next time before to post the reply. Thank you.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Born to be WillD Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 1) There are different bores of pistons and rings. The quickest piston

> check is a drop test, you can kindof do this with sachs, though less

> easily cuz 1 piece cylinder/head. no rings, drop the piston in. should

> slide smoothly in and out. not too much tolerance. simple check.

> quickest ring check is gap. stick em in. too small wont stay put and

> will fall in. too big the ends of the rings overlap or no gap.

>

> 2) There are different lengths of piston. Sachs "A" piston wont work in

> a "D" jug. (Crank doesnt matter but cylinder and piston must match)

> Sounds like you're all D, if so ignore this one

>

> 3) This shoulda been #1. make sure your ring gap is matched up with the

> pin when you slide it in. otherwise your'e screwed - this is 99% of why

> people break rings.

>

> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Z8C0DnPHj39Cj_BCShtSeMU4_D7PDHtEfjzwJL7kfWlq6CSkmIXD513gMik7WaseFxHRgw

>

> 4) There are different ring types. make sure it fits in the groove and

> that the ring gap-type matches the pin type.

> https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRub0T86G4WvKyvqyHYfLAOnrM3gQI0pYcOmAW4SEQEYE7fIJVh&s

>

> I suspect you had missed the pin when putting it in. but wanted to

> include the other options you may have the right size but wrong type of

> rings etc/

Thanks man this was really helpful. I definitely missed the pin when putting it in and that’s probably why I kept breaking the rings. I never understood how to properly put them on.

When the piston got stuck in the jug, it actually had no rings at all, so I know there are no rings blocking it in there. I just think the force from me kicking the exhaust into place not realizing it was attached to the jug still caused the piston to wedge itself in there a bit. (Because the jug wasn’t bolted down at the time either) I’ve been soaking it in PB blaster all night hoping it’ll come loose and I’ll assess any damage. I was literally pissed because I had broken yet another set of rings I’d been waiting for so I was just closing everything back up to store it and take a break from it for awhile, when I stupidly cause myself a big headache by getting the piston stuck on accident. Lol Ope!

Thanks man I’ll post an update soon! (edited)

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

If there's no rings on the Piston it's a mystery to me.lol maybe it had a small piece of detritus in there it's wedged up against. Hmmm

I guess you don't really have anything to lose. Heat up the cylinder or throw some oil in there. See if that helps...

WAIT! did you have the retaining clips on the Piston pin? The pin could have slid into a port window I suppose. Or maybe the clippy?

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Yeah if there are no rings did a circlip pop out, or did you not have the circlip and the piston wrist pin is now stuck in a port?

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Definitely have had to kick sachs exhaust on and they dont well stay put. I usually tryn drill little holes in the bpttom fins tp spring mount it up

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Ryan Brad Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> First off bud, If you’ve got nothing productive to add why post at all?

>

> Look the way the jug was at the time it wasn’t secure to the bottom

> m end, there were no rings even on the piston at the time, as the post

> title suggest, I broke them trying to get them on the piston. the

> exhaust was attached to the jug and I kicked the exhaust without

> realizing this and just wedged the piston in there the wrong way. I’ve

> spent COUNTLESS hours learning about this engine before trying this

> upgrade, and you know well as anyone I hope there’s not exactly a wealth

> of knowledge readily available.

>

> Literally my first build ever. I made a dumb mistake kicking it, I know

> that’s what wedged it in there because I actually do have a good head on

> my shoulders believe it or not, and I’ll have to figure out how to get

> it off myself. I was just asking for any advice someone might have. If I

> bent the crank or damaged the jug so be it... I have spares or I’ll have

> to buy some more parts.

>

> Think about whether what you’re adding to the conversation is productive

> or just being an ass next time before to post the reply. Thank you.

Actually, what I added was purely helpful. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you something erroneous happened to cause your problem, like a ring breaking and snagging.

But the fact that you kicked the cylinder while it was not bolted to the case, kinda points to the fact that you did muck it up.

Here's my advice: Something broke on the piston while you were whacking away at your exhaust, which has created a blockage along the ports. There is no way that with the piston in that far that you could have tilted the piston enough to wedge it without structural blockage.

Further advice: if you can't take criticism of your technique or understanding of the subject, you should just refrain from asking for people's advice on a public forum. In the grand scheme, my reply was not even aggressively critical, and if that's got yer piston in a twist (see what I did there?) I don't know what to tell ya.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Ryan Brad Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > First off bud, If you’ve got nothing productive to add why post at

> all?

>

> >

>

> > Look the way the jug was at the time it wasn’t secure to the bottom

>

> > m end, there were no rings even on the piston at the time, as the post

>

> > title suggest, I broke them trying to get them on the piston. the

>

> > exhaust was attached to the jug and I kicked the exhaust without

>

> > realizing this and just wedged the piston in there the wrong way. I’ve

>

> > spent COUNTLESS hours learning about this engine before trying this

>

> > upgrade, and you know well as anyone I hope there’s not exactly a

> wealth

>

> > of knowledge readily available.

>

> >

>

> > Literally my first build ever. I made a dumb mistake kicking it, I

> know

>

> > that’s what wedged it in there because I actually do have a good head

> on

>

> > my shoulders believe it or not, and I’ll have to figure out how to get

>

> > it off myself. I was just asking for any advice someone might have. If

> I

>

> > bent the crank or damaged the jug so be it... I have spares or I’ll

> have

>

> > to buy some more parts.

>

> >

>

> > Think about whether what you’re adding to the conversation is

> productive

>

> > or just being an ass next time before to post the reply. Thank you.

>

> Actually, what I added was purely helpful. I gave you the benefit of the

> doubt that you something erroneous happened to cause your problem, like

> a ring breaking and snagging.

>

> But the fact that you kicked the cylinder while it was not bolted to the

> case, kinda points to the fact that you did muck it up.

>

> Here's my advice: Something broke on the piston while you were whacking

> away at your exhaust, which has created a blockage along the ports.

> There is no way that with the piston in that far that you could have

> tilted the piston enough to wedge it without structural blockage.

>

> Further advice: if you can't take criticism of your technique or

> understanding of the subject, you should just refrain from asking for

> people's advice on a public forum. In the grand scheme, my reply was not

> even aggressively critical, and if that's got yer piston in a twist (see

> what I did there?) I don't know what to tell ya.

Lmao okay buddy, you went out of your way to jab me about the fact that I mucked it up, without adding any solid advice, when I already clearly stated that I did just that. Get along with everyone else just fine, you just come off a bit as twat in my opinion! But hey if that’s the rep you’re going for ! My piston is tip top thank you very much, sir have a nice day.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Aaron Blair Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> If there's no rings on the Piston it's a mystery to me.lol maybe it had

> a small piece of detritus in there it's wedged up against. Hmmm

>

> I guess you don't really have anything to lose. Heat up the cylinder or

> throw some oil in there. See if that helps...

>

> WAIT! did you have the retaining clips on the Piston pin? The pin could

> have slid into a port window I suppose. Or maybe the clippy?

Shoot it’s been so long since I screwed it up I can hardly remember. I’m pretty damn sure I had the circlips in both sides but it’s possible I fuckin lost one and left one side open I can’t remember. What a screw up if that’s the case, I hope the wrist pin didn’t slide out and get stuck that’d be a nightmare !! All this cuz I lost my composure and got pissed cuz I broke some rings smh..

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Ryan Brad Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Lmao okay buddy, you went out of your way to jab me about the fact that

> I mucked it up, without adding any solid advice, when I already clearly

> stated that I did just that. Get along with everyone else just fine, you

> just come off a bit as twat in my opinion! But hey if that’s the rep

> you’re going for ! My piston is tip top thank you very much, sir have a

> nice day.

I'll take the twat rep over the over-zealous and club-fisted first-timer rep.

Maybe just use your head instead of your feet next time you have a problem to solve. (edited)

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Clearly bud. Hope you feel great about yerself.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Aaron Blair Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> If there's no rings on the Piston it's a mystery to me.lol maybe it had

> a small piece of detritus in there it's wedged up against. Hmmm

>

> I guess you don't really have anything to lose. Heat up the cylinder or

> throw some oil in there. See if that helps...

>

> WAIT! did you have the retaining clips on the Piston pin? The pin could

> have slid into a port window I suppose. Or maybe the clippy?

Okay y’all, sorry if you’re sifting thru some saltuna on this thread but ... here are some pictures that may or may not help .. see the broken intake screw ? Is that probably what’s holding the piston in that spot? Hopefully y’all might be able to tell with some more experience weather the piston is in a position to get stuck in a port. I really hope the wrist pin is not stuck in a port that would blow!!! Thanks for tagging along on this thread still if you are. Y’all are the bomb. I soaked it in penetrating oil and heated it up tried to put a c clamp on and yanked like the dickens but it hasn’t budged...!

02D7386B-0BBF-4924-BEB0-CEEF881CBDB0.jpeg
ADF0AA8E-B538-4DD4-B8E5-7419CAB690FE.jpeg
31A681FD-9964-4C43-8A66-523549504F6A.jpeg

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Ryan Brad Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Lmao okay buddy, you went out of your way to jab me about the fact

> that

>

> > I mucked it up, without adding any solid advice, when I already

> clearly

>

> > stated that I did just that. Get along with everyone else just fine,

> you

>

> > just come off a bit as twat in my opinion! But hey if that’s the rep

>

> > you’re going for ! My piston is tip top thank you very much, sir have

> a

>

> > nice day.

>

> I'll take the twat rep over the over-zealous and club-fisted first-timer

> rep.

>

> Maybe just use your head instead of your feet next time you have a

> problem to solve.

You’re literally an ass my guy. Obviously I said I made a mistake and didn’t realize my exhaust was attached to the cylinder when I tried to kick it into position. I realized my mistake immediately which is why I posted on here for advice. Yes I wish I’d have known it was still attached. I wouldn’t be in this position. The real question is who hurt you so bad you retreat to being a complete dickhead on the internet ?

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Probably gonna end up taking the case apart and replacing he crank and piston and jug... buy a kit or just restoring with my old A parts. Thanks all.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

I was just thinking that, get new stuff to get you back on the road and look in to the D stuff in your spare time.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Dude, people here are abrasive. Just like a buddy would give you shit don't take it personally.

No that bolt doesn't pass into the cylinder. If I were you I'd put some lube in there sit with a leg on each side of the case. N give it some Yanks. Worst case scenario it don't move. Best case it comes off n ur swell. Somewhere in the middle there you cylinder n Piston are screwed but u can use the crank.

Since a shock caused the problem id jostle the fuck out of that thing in line with the Piston pin....you could also buy a bore o scope thingy for your phone and look up into the transfers in in the cylinder.

Also, don't feel bad. I've fucked up wayyyyyy worse than this when I was starting out. Also, it's mopeds. I still do dumb shit all the time.

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Also, click "view flat" in the upper corner of the webpage. Then you can view the forum like it's not 1995 and read every post without reloading. Lol,

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Ryan Brad Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> You’re literally an ass my guy. Obviously I said I made a mistake and

> didn’t realize my exhaust was attached to the cylinder when I tried to

> kick it into position. I realized my mistake immediately which is why I

> posted on here for advice. Yes I wish I’d have known it was still

> attached. I wouldn’t be in this position. The real question is who hurt

> you so bad you retreat to being a complete dickhead on the internet ?

No, the intake stud won't stop the piston.

Your base gasket is not correct, it's covering the ports

Judging by the grit/dirt visible on the piston, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what bricked your attempts.

Ryan: **goes on internet to ask opinions after making a mistake**

Internet: hey, you made a mistake.

Ryan: WhAtS yOuR pRoBlEm MaN?!?!

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Ryan Brad Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

>Yes I wish I’d have known it was still attached. I wouldn’t be in this position.

How could you not know the exhaust was still attached to the cylinder while trying to insert a piston in that cylinder ?

Re: Sachs 505/d How to put rings on piston without breaking them?

> Aaron Blair Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Also, click "view flat" in the upper corner of the webpage. Then you can

> view the forum like it's not 1995 and read every post without reloading.

> Lol,

Flat view has been done away with a while back .

The OP writes a reply without quoting and it shows as dribble at the end of the thread .

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