First time troubleshooting

Hey ladies and gents. I say this every post but this place is such a helpful and cool place to ask questions or just spend an hour reading about other people’s bikes etc.

It’s been due to a lot of comments and the wiki that I’ve managed to get this far and the puch is starting to look, sound and feel like a real moped now.

I finally got the tank sealed and frame painted and then had a couple days serious fun building it back up. With a fair amount of apprehension I started kicking it over until it fired up. I’ve owned a few mopeds and scooters in various stages of working (or not) and this is the first one I’ve taken so much time and energy to get running from a real poor state. Was a proper thrill to hear something you’ve fixed and replaced come to life.

Now I want to get It running nice and as reliable as it can be. Couple questions and I already feel I’ll get bollocked for a few of them.

Puch Maxi (S?) late 1970s

E50

New piston,

New cylinder and head and studs

clone carb

New stator

New exhaust - techno circuit

1. The pile of moped urine that I found. Think it’s transmission fluid. The engine hasn’t leaked throughout working on it then after running it to see it it would start ( with no exhaust) I came back in the morning to find it looked under the bike around the centre stand. Can’t see it coming from anywhere in particular. Is this the old gaskets and seals being torn apart after bot running for possible 20 years?

2. I started it the first day without the exhaust, it was noisy as anything! But it seemed ok, just rode it around the driveway and it seemed to pull ok. No idea what speed it would’ve done but it was pulling me along. The next day I put the exhaust on and now it will start, idle fine but when I sit on it and give it throttle it does nothing, bogs a bit. Doesn’t die every time though. Is this related to question 1 or does the pipe need other adjustments to the bike? Upset etc?

3 air filter? I don’t plan on putting a big bore kit etc on the bike and I just want the standard 25-30 from it just now. Should I be goibgbstandard air box or is there anything that would let me do some adjusting later on? The reason I bought the pipe that I did was so that it could cope with very mild tuning but also run standard. Is there a similar option r.e air filter.

Thank in advance. This place is epic!

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Re: First time troubleshooting

The only fluids in them should be ATF or pre-mix, so what is the fluid? ATF is red.

Did you install new seals and gaskets? Poor performance is usually air leaks from seals and gaskets.

You are gonna catch hell for using a clone carb on this site.

Is the needle valve good and seating properly?

Is the float bowl gasket good?

Did you install a new petcock?

Did you turn the petcock off?

Is the tank leak free?

Is it actually urine because you have a dog?

Stock air boxes are very restrictive, so if you omit them you should change the jetting.

Then there's timing.

You will get there, keep trying. (edited)

Re: First time troubleshooting

Smell the urine. If it smells like gas, it's your float needle not sealing and your carb dripping gas into your cylinder and out of your open exhaust port overnight.

Re: First time troubleshooting

Not premix so it has to be atf.

Didn’t redo casing seals etc. Now that I’ve had it run and gotten used to it a bit I will do this, just wondered if there was a sure fire way to know if it was that?

Yeah I’ve read a fair few threads on the site and imagine I will. Over here in the uk these bikes don’t go for 50 bucks. Even in really bad shape they’re still 3-400 pounds so maybe 400-540 dollars. I was just being cheap to get it running. I plan on upgrading what I can until I’ve changed every nur bolt seal etc. Basically a puch for dummies project.

Needle valve looked fine when I took carb apart when I got it.

Ditto for the float seal.

Haha you said cock. Yes it’s new.

No I don’t think I did. Think it was on reserve. I didn’t fill the tank up to much as I’m waiting on gas cap. Maybe it was pre mix but didn’t smell or feel like it and tasting it would’ve been pointless as I can’t tell the difference between atf and pre mix with my palette. I think one has a hint of oats and summer berries but not sure which.

Tank is leak free! Was a saga! Don’t wanna talk about it.

No dog. But now I want a puppy.

I imagine you’re reply is change seals and gaskets?

Any info regarding the loss addition of the exhaust changing the power of the engine?

Re: First time troubleshooting

The most common places for ATF leak on an E50 are:

the clutch cover/gasket. very common for the cover to have warped a bit over time and the gasket to need replacing. Can also lightly sand clutch cover sealing surface over flat surface until level again

the fill plug/drain plug. both of these have gaskets as well. inspect gasket seal and tighten to torque value

If you were riding around without an exhaust pipe, the 2-stroke vented out of the exhaust port likely accumulated on the underside of your cases and your kickstand, etc. So it's possible that oil slick is the result of it all dripping off overnight.

Re: First time troubleshooting

Replace the gasket on the oil drain.

Re: First time troubleshooting

1. It's either gas or transmission fluid. If it smells like gas, it's gas and came from the tank, the carb, or the petcock. Bings are notoriously leaky and clones are just notorious, so I'd prob look there first. If it doesn't smell like gas, it's transmission fluid, which could be from where the case fits together, the engine seals, the clutch cover, or the drain hole underneath. If you wipe everything down so it's (mostly) clean and dry and leave it for a few hours, you might be able to determine the source just by looking for the trail of red oil.

2. You bought a good exhaust. Hopefully you bought a good exhaust gasket to go along with it. Those puffy ones for Puch/Tomos are great. As a rule, change the gasket whenever you remove the pipe (people break this rule all the time but you're new so you have to follow it). Anyway, I THINK running without an exhaust makes you leaner, so if you had less power with the pipe then you may be jetted too rich. This is a whole 'nother thing. What jet is in that carb?

3. Ken Roff told me to run a metal mesh filter so I did that and it worked great for years. Eventually the rubber part will break and you can replace it with a velocity stack.

Nice paint job. Put a cover on your flywheel so you don't get a bunch of water and dirt in there. And run some lights, including a brake light. Safety first.

Re: First time troubleshooting

I've never rebuilt an engine, so experts will eventually chime in. Seals, gaskets, and bearings are all 40 years old and dry out, so plan on a rebuild. Opt for better seals and bearings as the prices aren't that much higher. Since I know going in that the engine should be rebuilt, I like to see if they run first as well, and this can eliminate electrical and fuel issues.

A better than stock pipe ought to give you more power or speed. Changing pipe, carb, and air box ought to mean changing jets from stock and possibly timing. Same thing if you install a better crank, piston, cylinder, rings, head.

You could also install better tires and pressed in wheel bearings as well. Everything adds a little more speed at a little more price. What about a CDI over points? At some point, you reach a point of diminishing return.

Is spending $150 on tires instead of $80 worth the extra 1 mile per hour faster speed? The same for pressed in bearings? Top speed for these ought to be around 40-45 mph. They were never designed to go much faster. You won't be able to stop in time so then you spend more on better brakes.

Pretty soon you have spent $1000 on a bike and your significant other says you need to be responsible and get rid of it. Then no buyer wants to pay what you have into it. It can be a frustrating hobby, but the shit eating grin on the face, the looks and comments from passers by, the conversations you end up having with total strangers, and the friends you make when you find more people who have them are certainly worth it.

And, if your spouse or kids get into it as well, that's a big bonus. (edited)

Re: First time troubleshooting

Cheers man. I’ll give it a wipe down today. See if I can detect the leak. Because I’m in the uk I’m using puchshop.de who have been great. Got a gasket from them with the airsal cyclinder. Hopefully it’s up to scratch. Mine came with a beautifully outdated grey plastic light. Just because of what I’m aiming for with the bike,the chrome head and taillights are en route as we speak.

When you say change to a wire mesh, you mean in the original filter? The bike came without a filter, missing half a carb but maybe the half I have is original, worth sticking the bits I need onto the older carb body?

Re: First time troubleshooting

Will do. I’m keen to open the engine and replace everything. Just for the experience really but I was hoping that I could at least run the bike a little first so if it’s the drain plug gasket they’d be a bonus. Would no transmission fluid cause the sluggishness I’m experiencing?

Re: First time troubleshooting

Sorry, should have been more clear on the filter. Scrap the stock airbox and go for an aftermarket one. Some are made of foam and some are made of metal. I like the metal one. This one is from Treatland but I assume Puchshop has something similar: https://www.treatland.tv/bing-air-filter-p/puch-bing-metal-hi-flow-filter.htm

Re: First time troubleshooting

Overpriced Parts /

For better bearing Life and better clutch slip and life (if stock asbestos lined) pitch junk type f transmission fluid and run 0w20 5w20-30 synthetic car motor oil In all e50s and za50s

Re: First time troubleshooting

Thanks for all the suggestions. Working my way through them now. Got new Allen studs. Much more secure so no air leak between intake. Exhaust is on and hasn’t been another leak like that so reckon that’s fixed that. Still no power.

I started looking at the carb. Tried to get the jet out of the atomiser on the clone carb and it’s not having it. Would they make a solid piece by any chance? Just a one size kind of thing?

I went back and looked at the bing that I got with the bike. Wondering whether it’s worth remaking it? Has lots of stuff missing/deteriorated. Think most can be cleaned up but the little button to prime the float is rusty as! Pic is there. What you think? Salvageable?

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Re: First time troubleshooting

The jet in your clone carb may be part of the atomizer. That’s okay, because you want to use all original Bing guts in it. The only part of the clone you will use is the body. Throw the internals away.

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Seth B Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> The jet in your clone carb may be part of the atomizer. That’s okay,

> because you want to use all original Bing guts in it. The only part of

> the clone you will use is the body. Throw the internals away.

Gah! I have almost the opposite problem. I have the bing body with atomiser and jet but nothing else. The bike came as a piece of junk. Slide etc are all what I have from the clone? Worth putting them in the bing body or just swap the good jet and atomiser to the clone for just now? I’ll be collecting prices as and when and would hope to build a whole bing from nos or good spares that I can source.

Re: First time troubleshooting

Yes, totally worth putting the bing jet and atomizer in the cloney clone.

Re: First time troubleshooting

Yep, put all the Bing parts in the clone body, and you should be fine.

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Aaron Blair Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, totally worth putting the bing jet and atomizer in the cloney

> clone.

Great, from what I understand I know you can’t give an exact key size but with a 12mm carb and Tecno circuit pipe and a 70 jet at the moment, should I look into getting a range of jets to try? If so is it above or below? Sorry for so many questions. Keen to see this thing run properly.

Re: First time troubleshooting

70 seems pretty high for a 12mm carb and just a circuit pipe. I'd start with 64 or 66.

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Chinatown Kicks Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 70 seems pretty high for a 12mm carb and just a circuit pipe. I'd start

> with 64 or 66.

Great! Give that a go. It’s now running. It’ll pull me on the flat but struggling up hills. Also not letting me go past about a 1/4 to 1/2 throttle before it bogs. Still no idea about air filter but I put this on to see if it would help/stop crap going in. Just a tube from an old scooter. Certainly helped. Also, just yet another query, it’s got a 220 atomiser in it? Is that supposed to be that? I’m absolutely new to this part. Reading the wiki is one thing but someone actually replying to specific things really is helpful.

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Re: First time troubleshooting

Roffman is the real expert on Bing guts but it looks like 12mms came with 2.12A or 2.22 atomizers (https://myronsmopeds.com/category/carburetor/bing/).

What if you turned that tube like 90 or 180 degrees so rain or whatever wouldn't fall in?

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Chinatown Kicks Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Roffman is the real expert on Bing guts but it looks like 12mms came

> with 2.12A or 2.22 atomizers

> (https://myronsmopeds.com/category/carburetor/bing/).

>

> What if you turned that tube like 90 or 180 degrees so rain or whatever

> wouldn't fall in?

Hey man, cheers for that, I’ve got a fe things in the basket on puchshop (selection of jets and a proper air filter) so I’ll add a proper sized atomiser to see if it helps. Don’t mind having a few things lying around. Yeah the tube was just to see if having it totally open was causing any major problems. Hoping the proper filter and selection of jets should let me play around a bit and see if I can get a bit better running. Wondering if these should be capable of running from standstill without any pedalling to help them get going? It’s not registered yet so can’t take it on the road, just plodding around my circle driveway. Maybe I’m expecting too much from the engine?

Re: First time troubleshooting

If it's a pedal-start, yeah, it doesn't need to be moving to fire up. Just put it on the center stand, squeeze the clutch lever, and give the pedal a kick. Using the choke sometimes helps depending on the temperature. The better tuned it is the easier it will be.

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Chinatown Kicks Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> If it's a pedal-start, yeah, it doesn't need to be moving to fire up.

> Just put it on the center stand, squeeze the clutch lever, and give the

> pedal a kick. Using the choke sometimes helps depending on the

> temperature. The better tuned it is the easier it will be.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. It starts and idles fine by kicking it while on the stand. When I’m sitting on it to get it running, it’s got no power. I think it’s because it’s not set up properly but wondering whether most decent bikes will go from idle to running without much peddling half way along the road flintstones styleeeee?

Re: First time troubleshooting

Oh, sorry, I get it. Yeah, you ought to be able to get at least some power in the driveway.

You got the thing to idle, so you're halfway there. Now you just have to make sure you're airleak-free, that your fuel/air mixture is right (jetting), and that the mixture is igniting at the right point (timing). To some extent that just requires trial and error. Are your results any better with the choke down or with the filter/tube completely off? Have you confirmed your timing and point gap are to spec?

Re: First time troubleshooting

Atomizer size and needle type (there are 2) are super important on these damn single-circuit Bings. They can really be the difference between making enough power under load or not since they are essentially your only way to control your mid-range up to wide open throttle (slide cutaway also a factor.)

I don't recommend doing this, but I bet if you got it started on the stand and opened it all the way up to WOT and kept it there then hopped on it and dropped the stand it would run just fine with you on it, because at that point it's just the main jet size that matters until you release the throttle again.

EASIEST method on a stock bike is make the carb components exactly stock and go from there, which it sounds like you are able to do. But yeah atomizer size matters a lot

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Chinatown Kicks Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Oh, sorry, I get it. Yeah, you ought to be able to get at least some

> power in the driveway.

>

> You got the thing to idle, so you're halfway there. Now you just have

> to make sure you're airleak-free, that your fuel/air mixture is right

> (jetting), and that the mixture is igniting at the right point (timing).

> To some extent that just requires trial and error. Are your results any

> better with the choke down or with the filter/tube completely off? Have

> you confirmed your timing and point gap are to spec?

I think the tube definitely helped. Seemed to make it a bit more stable Rev wise. But also by that point I had figured out roughly where the bike was bogging and managing to get the throttle to give me just enough to move. Maybe try it again without it and see what the differences are.

Timing - I watched a kid of “how to” videos and read as much as I could. Started shifting it the other day but still not as close to 17 degrees as I’d like. Stator is super stiff so have to take the fly wheel off each time and then got coauthor up with other jobs. ( had about 60 meters of 10ft hedge to cut, still after using a petrol strummer for hours I smelled like the puch so that’s cool). Will be back at it this weekend to nail down timing. Nice to know I’m going in the right direction at least.

Re: First time troubleshooting

> Mike Boyd Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Atomizer size and needle type (there are 2) are super important on these

> damn single-circuit Bings. They can really be the difference between

> making enough power under load or not since they are essentially your

> only way to control your mid-range up to wide open throttle (slide

> cutaway also a factor.)

>

> I don't recommend doing this, but I bet if you got it started on the

> stand and opened it all the way up to WOT and kept it there then hopped

> on it and dropped the stand it would run just fine with you on it,

> because at that point it's just the main jet size that matters until you

> release the throttle again.

>

> EASIEST method on a stock bike is make the carb components exactly stock

> and go from there, which it sounds like you are able to do. But yeah

> atomizer size matters a lot

I DEFINITELY WILL NOT PROBABLY MAYBE NOT DO THAT THEN, MAYBE! Thanks for the advice. Will absolutely put an atomiser in the shopping cart. Trying to make sure there’s nothing else I’m really needing as shipping is the same as the goodies so figured I’d get two loads of toys in one go.

Re: First time troubleshooting

Try it with the choke down plus the filter/snorkel. If it’s any better, that’s a sign you’re too lean and will need a bigger jet.

Get the timing squared away first, tho. Next time you pop off the flywheel, unbolt the stator too and clean it out back there if necessary. Or if there’s a little burr or something inhibiting travel then sand it down. It doesn’t need to travel far or super smoothly but you should be able to adjust it through the flywheel windows.

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