Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

I've seen a lot of posts where someone has brought an electric "moped" option to the table (or something similar) where MA members have either torn it apart or been cautiously supportive. What I would like to try and start is an open dialogue where we can discuss and debate the pros, cons and alternatives to electric motorized vs fossil fuel travel... not just specific to mopeds (although maybe that should he the main focus)- but across the board. Some of us may grumble- but our future as a planet depends on our moving away from fossil fuels to a low-footprint alternative. Opinions, ideas, (friendly) arguments, and educated guesses would be fantastic! Also, I am sure we have a host of people who are very educated on all involved technologies and I am eager to hear from everyone.

Let the talk commence!

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

I'll start- I feel that electric motors/engines are a good start, but they aren't going to save us. The parts are more delicate and the batteries, though they certainly last longer than a tank of gas/petrol they still die with no current way to fix with minimal environmental effect. They simply wear away and must be completely replaced. I suppose a solar option could be considered, but there still needs to be a storage unit of some type or youd only be riding in the day time. Comes back to a throw-away battery that cant be fixed or easily recycled (yet). Mybthought is we really need to find an easily renewable flammable fuel alternative. I'm sorry but we arent gonna get all the fuel vehicles off the road anytime soon so there will always be a demand for fossil fuel, especially in poorer countries. A safe veggie or waste or SOMETHING based combustible compound that will work in an IC engine is what we should be focusing on creating in my opinion. That way we can continue to make use of the millions of vehicles already use on the planet. People in rural areas all over the world arent gonna jump on electric vehicles and just dump the IC vehicles... and then theres THAT trash issue if the world goes over completely to electric... billions of tons of metal all of a sudden must be dealt with... and millions of broken hearts who can no longer use the mopeds (cars, trucks, motorcycles, etc) they love. Is it perfect, no. Until we, as a species, completely give up assisted travel (lol no way) we will always generate waste that we need to figure put how to recycle, repurpose, etc. So yeah, my opinion and ideas- neither of which are original I'm sure. Does anyone know if there is any work being done in this area?

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Seeing 'competitively' advertised moped (pedals and electric) for $1350 just the bike no electronics at all, $1850usd no batteries included for 500w motor or $2150 for the 1000w option (also no batteries)... not even a discussion in my mind for something that caps out at 50km/h and takes longer to recharge than to run.

We have tried a pair of electric bikes (pedal cycle frame with electric motors) for two years a while ago and the technology was NOT there at the time. 500w hub motor was slow on the get go and the top speed of 50km/h was never attained (80kg me not really 'heavy') so likely rated on perfectly flat ground, no wind, (whatever else to bump the rating). Did not perform well in winter, below freezing the batteries were not happy and I have to park in heated or semi-heated otherwise pedal my way home or to my destination.

Batteries were expensive for the better quality replacements, cheapo lower Ah rated batteries were not so expensive but probably would need replacing sooner. Have to store up the depleted batteries for DG collection, here it is once a year at a local towns public works, also have to remember to bring them there (out of sight out of mind).

Quality of the bikes I tried were not sufficient, two years and there was quite a bit of rust developing, switches and controls were sketchy in rain and snow as they were not very water proof though there were damp resistant. Hub motor on one bike started to become noisy on the second summer and replacement plus fresh battery set (good quality not cheapos) would have cost close to replacing the bike. Being summer I replaced the batteries with the cheapo ones and sold the bike cheap to someone living in town. Saw it a couple of times after than but never again... so perhaps it is dead-dead. The second bike I sold it the following spring 'as-is needs battery' some city guy came and talked the price down a little and "bye-bye".

Probably try a e-moped in the future, just not now, technology exists for reliability but the greed is coming before people can experience it, so a $2k (batteries not included) electric to me is about as appealing as a $50k (fuel not included? lol) pickup truck. I can wait a couple of years for the second hand market to be realistically affordable (based on value to me vs cost) before I buy a e-moped (or e-scooter or e-bike), allowing time and mileage weed out the crap.

Just y opinion based on something e-powered compared to a real moped, driven year round, +30°c (humidex up to 45°) to -10°c (would be colder if I was younger), sunny, rainy, snowy, windy days, to work and home plus fetching provisions in town and just riding about.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Sounds good! See if China, India, and South African Cobalt miners are down with it first tho.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

I have yet to see both on one machine.

Also, iirc something like 80% of our electricity is generated by fossil fuel. So for the time being we are more or less pissing in the wind. (edited)

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

One thing to consider when making a post on a vintage moped site is how much pollution is the talk of electric mopeds. Are there not electric moped forums to discuss ur goals? Those guys know a lot more about apocalypse! Ha

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Megasaurass Rex Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Sounds good! See if China, India, and South African Cobalt miners are

> down with it first tho.

It's silly to think that the production of fossil fuels, as well as the steel/iron/alu/rubber goods that go along with it, is any less detrimental to those workers than cobalt mining is to it's respective miners.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Megasaurass Rex Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Sounds good! See if China, India, and South African Cobalt miners are

>

> > down with it first tho.

>

> It's silly to think that the production of fossil fuels, as well as the

> steel/iron/alu/rubber goods that go along with it, is any less

> detrimental to those workers than cobalt mining is to it's respective

> miners.

It’s silly to compare apples to airplanes.

Cobalt miner:

2A9F3518-E7FC-4559-9726-2D33088FF66B.jpeg

Oil Workers:

E860A478-5876-4F22-87FF-5C075C7A49B1.jpeg

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Megasaurass Rex Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Sounds good! See if China, India, and South African Cobalt miners are

>

> > down with it first tho.

>

> It's silly to think that the production of fossil fuels, as well as the

> steel/iron/alu/rubber goods that go along with it, is any less

> detrimental to those workers than cobalt mining is to it's respective

> miners.

The argument I have to that is all of those materials are already being mined/produced anyway for all peds. Again, we're producing the vast majority of electricity from the consumption of fossil fuels. For now there's nothing green about electricity except to line one$ pocket$.

capture_0.png

(edited)

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Yeah, and the Wall Street miners would shit a Hindenburg if that went away.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Keep drilling for that oil.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> Megasaurass Rex Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> One thing to consider when making a post on a vintage moped site is how

> much pollution is the talk of electric mopeds. Are there not electric

> moped forums to discuss ur goals? Those guys know a lot more about

> apocalypse! Ha

See that's exactly why I put this here. The electric guys have already bought into electric vehicles as the way to go, so in a way, I feel have already decided. Again, an opinion, but I feel a valid one. We are the ones who are used to fixing, adapting, finding ways around things.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Brad William /

I don't see the frequent disruption of electronic technologies discussed often when making these comparisons. Ought to be of interest on a forum like this where most members are nursing along, and enjoying the process of keeping alive, 30, 40 and 50 year old machines. Good luck riding that 2020 electric bike in 2050. Or in 2025. Or in 2015.

I own a lot of power tools. Most are corded. This might seem off topic but it's not really. I'm not a contractor. These guys can easily justify the need for mobility and freedom from extension cords. They make their living with tools. It would be foolhardy of me to pay those nose bleeding high premiums required to replace my otherwise perfectly good tools every five years just because I can no longer find the batteries and parts for the tools. But most consumers, idiotically, do just that. I still own and use some of my dad's corded tools from 50 years ago. I will until we no longer have 110ac at our outlets.

Battery technology, at this point, for light personal transportation purposes (mine anyway) is still periodically disruptive enough that i can expect it to obsolesce that otherwise far from worn out bike while I own it. Or power tool. No one will stock parts for it... most of the components within are antiques within five years. Look at your five year old laptop. Try to find new parts for it. Most of the time you're reduced to chasing down take-offs from used ones, if you're lucky. It's not worth it usually. We just buy new laptops. We buy new cordless tools. What you gonna do with that five year old electric moped? Diy your own modular electronics? Learn to reflash the board's lost/cooked firmware with you're diy coding skills? Try in vain to find a place to recharge your antique lithium ion battery pack when everyone else has moved on to matchbox sized 3oz silicon/cobalt nano honeycomed asymmetrically modulated batteries and their non backward compatible chargers? You may look back fondly at the ability to resurrect you're piston pushing puch or tomos with a flat blade screwdriver, a paper clip, and a cup of premix from the farm down the road.

I have no antipathy toward new electric vehicles, or cordless tools. For the vast majority of us in 2020 they're just not ready for prime time. For me that's not until some future point in this disruptive cycle of obsolescence where I can expect a more reasonable lifespan from something, even 15 years of consistent battery/fuel technology and parts availability. (edited)

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Dirty30 Dillon /

To be fair, rebuilding your cordless batt's is very easy with just a little knowledge, and most old NiCD/NiMH batteries can be shocked back into service quite a few times used a high voltage source, a la a welder.

Can't say the same of Lithium gear, but that's improving steadily. As WillD has stated, supply and demand applies to the creation of new tech/improvement of old tech as well.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Performance-wise, the immediate and broad power provided by electric motors combined with the near silent operation make them very appealing to me. I rode a Bolt/Monday Motorbikes bike a few years ago and it was like someone had built the Platonic ideal of a moped for me. Fast, torquey, clean, quiet. Don't get me wrong I enjoy mopeds for what they are, but if the battery/power technology ever gets there for electric I'd make the switch for my daily driver no question.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

And then theres always the chance of a solar flare big enough to shut down all power grids and electronic devices. Sooner or later, I hope I never see it happen. (edited)

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> live ɘvil Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> And then theres always the chance of a solar flare big enough to shut

> down all power grids and electronic devices. Sooner or later, I hope I

> never see it happen.

And when that happens gas vehicles are fucked too, good luck getting gasoline if the power grid is shut down. Not like you could ride down to the local Shell and still get gas lol

There's a learning curve to repairing electric powertrains just like there's a learning curve to repairing mopeds. It's steeper for electric powertrains for sure, but it's far from impossible to learn. Don't underestimate your own abilities.

I am part of an electric motorcycle race team that won the Pike's Peak International Hill Climb electric class a couple years ago and was going to race the Isle of Man this year before they cancelled the electric class. I don't think you can understand why electrics are the future until you ride one. 3 phase AC motors kick ass. They're becoming cheaper; and reducing our dependency on Fossil fuels in any capacity is a step in the right direction.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> Nick Haber Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > live ɘvil Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > And then theres always the chance of a solar flare big enough to shut

>

> > down all power grids and electronic devices. Sooner or later, I hope I

>

> > never see it happen.

>

> And when that happens gas vehicles are fucked too, good luck getting

> gasoline if the power grid is shut down. Not like you could ride down to

> the local Shell and still get gas lol

I usually keep a few gallons around anyway and my tank full on my truck. I do know how to get it out btw.

Siphoning from the ground would be no problemo either. Where you been?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/03/02/deputies-say-suspect-used-elaborate-system-to-syphon-gas-from-underground-tank/amp/

https://6abc.com/police-suspect-stole-1700-gallons-of-gasoline-in-delaware/3823125/

https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/two-men-accused-of-siphoning-hundreds-of-gallons-of-diesel

https://www.fox13news.com/news/watch-trailer-weighs-down-as-thief-siphons-gas-into-tanks-inside-police-say (edited)

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> Megasaurass Rex Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Sounds good! See if China, India, and South African Cobalt miners are

> down with it first tho.

LOL!

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

If loud pipes save lives...

Quiet bikes will kill.

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

I don't know how many of you follow moto-gp

this year they had a class for e-bikes, they produced as much power as the moto2 bikes and were able to race a full race with out worrying about battery life (45 mins hammering down full power)

https://www.energicamotorusa.com/electric-motorcycle-energica-ego/

imo i feel like if moto-gp is willing to pump money into r&d on electric bikes then its only a matter of time till we see more mass produced e-bikes which will slowly roll out more tech for smaller pedal bikes and moped styled e-bikes.

e-bikes definitely seem to be the future the same way everyone thought there was no way to beat a 2 stroke bike in the racing circuit and now 4 strokes are the norm in road racing and 2 stroke dirt bikes are still struggling to be competitive with the 4stroke tech

i think its a matter of time for more affordable tech to be available to the masses.

my boss got the itch to make a electric bike with what we had on hand, i helped source him a moby 50v frame, he took a car alternator and some Prius battery packs, ordered a Chinese controller and we got that thing going a solid 25. but Prius battery are straight garbage and so is using an alternator as a motor, but it worked

I think in the early stages, its all about thinking outside the box because what is available on the market is not cheap enough to make something viable

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

> Zach Riddle Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I don't know how many of you follow moto-gp

>

> this year they had a class for e-bikes, they produced as much power as

> the moto2 bikes and were able to race a full race with out worrying

> about battery life (45 mins hammering down full power)

I retract what I just said, before I edited this, I'm a dumbo. Isle of man only races one lap for electrics. But I just wanted to point out that battery life isn't an issue when you have a bunch of money. Our Pikes Peak race bike had 938 battery cells that we spot-welded by hand into a battery pack.

A good source of cells to use are from handheld drill battery packs. You can get a couple usable cells out of each pack you get, and they're basically free. (edited)

Re: Fuel vs Electric - a dialogue

Yeah of course with money its a non issue. Our little alterped as we call it would work great with about 700 18650s but thats expensive thats why we tried prius batterys. Got two packs out of two cars for under 100. They are not lituem though which was an issue.

What im saying though is motogp getting into it will trickle effect into the open market the same way f1 tech eventully trickles down into our everyday communting lives in our cars

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