Wiring questions (puch e50)

I'm wondering this in general, but for this post I'll ask about the E50 from Puch, as that's the wiring diagram I'm looking at (https://www.mopedarmy.com/w/images/b/bb/Stock_puch_wiring_diagram.jpg).

I drew it out as a modified version, and essentially I'd be replacing the stock 6V lighting coil with a 12V lighting coil, and off of that I'd run it directly into a rectifier and then a 14~ish volt regulator for charging a 12V battery (I might need a dedicated charging circuit between here though), and then off the battery I'd have one more 12V reg going to all my lights, a new horn, signals, etc.

So my questions are as follows:

How does one go about replacing a lighting coil? I know that's vague but in this example a puch e50 diagram is pretty simple, but the wires coming off the generator are unclear. It's not really revealed which coil even is the lighting coil.

Would I need some sort of dedicated battery charging circuit after a 12V reg/rectifier? If so, can you link me something?

Thanks!

EDIT:

On treats, https://www.treatland.tv/puch-12-volt-light-coil-2-0-improved-version-p/puch-light-coil.htm this coil seems like a good point of reference. The review says that only one of the rails really matters, as the headlight cable will power everything sufficiently. I just need it to get fed into a couple of components and then a battery. So is it safe to assume that this would get wired up yellow wire (12V AC) to the positive input of a rectifier/regulator, and then it would share an AC ground with the ignition coil (meaning the brown wire on the diagram would go into the negative input of the rectifier/regulator)?(edited)

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

I had bad luck with 12v and 6v coils on the same grounding system and I had arcing points. I'm not an electrical engineer and I couldn't find any definitive answers about it online so I can't say for certainty you'll have the same issue if you run a battery and float the ground from the 12v light coil...

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

more moped army nonsense. you cant float a stator period. what is wrong with the people here. the only thing you can do with a stator is change where its grounded.

6 to 12 what's wrong with using ohms law to do it. change in load will change the voltage. what you need is modern bulbs, not a different stator.

the lighting coil has nothing to do with ignition. it has its own dedicated stator.

that crappy diagram does not show much. seems to be a recurrent problem here. you need to test the stator and see how the thing is wired yourself. once you know how the stator is wired then you can order the right type of modern r/r.

one hint. the tail light runs off a tap in the stator. it is not used in your conversion.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> el pollo Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> more moped army nonsense. you cant float a stator period. what is wrong

> with the people here. the only thing you can do with a stator is change

> where its grounded.

>

> 6 to 12 what's wrong with using ohms law to do it. change in load will

> change the voltage. what you need is modern bulbs, not a different

> stator.

>

> the lighting coil has nothing to do with ignition. it has its own

> dedicated stator.

>

> that crappy diagram does not show much. seems to be a recurrent problem

> here. you need to test the stator and see how the thing is wired

> yourself. once you know how the stator is wired then you can order the

> right type of modern r/r.

>

> one hint. the tail light runs off a tap in the stator. it is not used in

> your conversion.

Appreciate your response, but would love a little friendlier of a tone :).

Anyhoo, yes, generally speaking the ground would be on the frame and can’t be floated, but because I’d run DC separately into each component it doesn’t really matter.

The 12V coil off treats doesn’t have its wattage listed, but according to a review one tap can power a 55W halogen + more. So because (I believe) the the stock coil is just generally weaker, it doesn’t make sense for me to step it up and loose some current carrying abilities.

I have considered just trying to find super efficient bulbs, which I’ll have to do anyway, but I want to power a LOT of stuff, and I want a stable supply to all of them (horn, LED’s, turn signals, etc).

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

my kurt tone is because ma is lame. over and over people want to re-engineer electrical systems without bothering to test to see how it's wired.

you can not float a stator. no one here learns. it's an idiot idea.

good luck on your conversion. it will not work because you choose to ignore basic principles. put 55w as opposed to the stock 25w into the ohms law formula and see it can't work.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> el pollo Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> my kurt tone is because ma is lame. over and over people want to

> re-engineer electrical systems without bothering to test to see how it's

> wired.

>

> you can not float a stator. no one here learns. it's an idiot idea.

>

> good luck on your conversion. it will not work because you choose to

> ignore basic principles. put 55w as opposed to the stock 25w into the

> ohms law formula and see it can't work.

What principles am I ignoring? A 55W output at 12V will offer a maximum current carrying ability of ~ 4.6A. 25W at 6V is around... ~4.6A. So if I want 12V output, I'd go with a different coil, as the stock one 25W coil at a boosted 12V will only be able to offer a maximum current of half that, around ~2A.

While I will admit that I'm unsure of what exactly you're referring to, the math lines up. The main challenge right now is charging the battery at a rate that is safe for the low capacity battery while still being able to power lights.

Please feel free to politely provide feedback and clarify what you mean.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

Frank Bailey (MOPITT) /

Gupperino, I used a regulator/rectifier similar to this one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Wires-Voltage-Regulator-Rectifier-ATV-GY6-50-150-Scooter-Moped-JCL-NST-TAOTAO/223707047329?epid=1739699470&hash=item3415faa5a1:g:MHMAAOSwXOVaZuvE

Mine is on a Minarelli V1, similar lighting coil. I detached the lighting coils ground and ran a wire from it out. Some call this floating the ground. Then connected these AC wires to the yellow and pink wires on the regulator. Now you can just use the red and green as your output and even use chassis ground. True it's still a 6-volt coil but I switched to LCD's and there is enough current even at idle to fire the headlight with minimal flicker. A capacitor or even a battery could be added but for keeping it inexpensive and simple this works. Use the search function, there are many here who have done this and similar variations. Go for it!

I left the stoplight circuit alone and simply added an LED tail light. I snuck a diode in just for some cheap insurance.(edited)

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

sorry I do this in my head.

E=IxR E is the voltage. R is unchanged.

6=IxR

double I with a bulb that has twice the current drain then the voltage gets lowered not raised.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

Not directed at anyone, just a quick update on the research I've done:

http://forum.omraoffroad.com/viewtopic.php?t=10564

This thread states that some have had success running lights straight off of a generator without a battery, and just a smoothing capacitor. I may consider this instead; though it would still require a large part of my original modified diagram, with a rectifier, regulator, an isolated DC ground coming of the reg, and a higher power coil. One less thing to mount is never a bad thing.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

no one calls moving the ground from the frame to the rectifier floating.

ma is retarded you can not float a stator. it is idiotic.

this is called running full wave. in this case you double the stator output by moving the ground off the frame.

trouble is this requires removing the flywheel and running a wire. that's asking a lot from someone who is not able to test the thing.

even if you run full wave that tap to the taillight is n/c

use that link you posted. that guy has some advanced schooling like me. we talk the same language.(edited)

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> el pollo Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> sorry I do this in my head.

>

> E=IxR E is the voltage. R is unchanged.

>

> 6=IxR

>

> double I with a bulb that has twice the current drain then the voltage

> gets lowered not raised.

What? I'm afraid I'm not following what you're saying. 12V DC that can supply 3.5-4~ amps is really what I'm worried about. According to treats, not only is that coil a higher voltage, it also can supply more current. That's the main takeaway. I guess technically the voltage is arbitrary if I was running everything off AC, but in the wave rectification, there is a current limitation, as that power has to come from somewhere. So a 25W coil running at 12V will be able to output less power than a 50W coil running at 12V. I don't see where Ohms law even comes into play here. The specifics of the power draw are not my main concern right now. I can always find lower-power lights.

> el pollo Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> no one calls moving the ground from the frame to the rectifier floating.

>

> ma is retarded you can not float a stator. it is idiotic.

>

> this is called running full wave. in this case you double the stator

> output by moving the ground off the frame.

>

> trouble is this requires removing the flywheel and running a wire.

> that's asking a lot from someone who is not able to test the thing.

>

> even if you run full wave that tap to the taillight is n/c

>

> use that link you posted. that guy has some advanced schooling like me.

> we talk the same language.

Avoid slurs please, advanced schooling doesn't shine through a fog of crude language. I'm not able to test the thing because I don't have a moped, thought I made that clear at the beginning, my apologies if I didn't. I'm just thinking ahead and considering how I would go about modifying something in the future that doesn't support everything that I want to do with it. The AC ground doesn't really matter to me because it won't be shared with the DC ground, nor any of the other DC wiring. All the stock AC ignition stuff will stay the same, but every other auxiliary feature will run off of DC.(edited)

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

The signal is consider floating when it does not have the same ground with your device. Earth has nothing to do with it. Earth is just another ground.

earth on a moped is the frame.

nice article but this one c/p says it.

big diodes exist but are silly expensive. if you want a 25a diode you run the kbpc5010 bridge half wave leaving the negative terminal unconnected. this part only costs a buck.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

if you want to re engineer a bike please do. you need a plan. there are many ways to deal with ac 6v stators. half wave, full wave modified stator, floating a new ground off the frame. either floating or half wave requires no stator mods.

already posted but this is how you float using the kbpc5010 rectifier. you do not use the taillight tap it's n/c.

rectifier + ------ cap +

rectifier ac --- stator wire, blaster type ac regulator +

other rectifier ac ---- n/c

rectifier negative -- new floating ground. it floats at -7v.

frame -------------- blaster ac regulator -, cap -

14v rectified and regulated juice is between the new ground and + on the rectifier.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

nobody knows what the hell you're on about because you cant speak english for shit and can't draw a wiring schematic and keep rambling about the semantics of the term 'floating ground'

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

like I said. you don't understand the basic principles. gave you the answer to your question with a cost of $11. good luck. typical ma.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

good reason to piss off, thanks!

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> good reason to piss off, thanks!

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> nobody knows what the hell you're on about because you cant speak

> english for shit and can't draw a wiring schematic and keep rambling

> about the semantics of the term 'floating ground'

you will never get it. what regulator you need depends on these names. you are a dumb ass. you don't understand the ee posts so you take it out on me. let Dillon the troll write your schematic.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

Dirty30 Dillon /

I'd be happy to chat with Graham about electrical all day, but mostly in a manner that is cohesive and without the voice of derision you seem to apply to your responses to even the most innocuous of questions.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

if you knew what you were talking about you would draw a simple napkin schematic in 5 minutes and post it right here. its not hard, we're waiting.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

El pollo, please refrain from arguing on my thread. Advice and feedback are always welcome but other than that, if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say it.

Still happy to hear input!

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

you start by learning the meaning of the following terms

floating, half wave, full wave

each one is wired differently and uses a different regulator.

look up the kbpc5010 then re read how to float again.(edited)

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> el pollo Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> use that link you posted. that guy has some advanced schooling like me.

> we talk the same language.

Dude I'm an electrical engineer and I can't understand what the hell you're trying to say most of the time. You may know what you're talking about but you're an asshole about it and seem to have a loose grasp on written English

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

Guthrie Mass, Sometimes getting a simple straight answer here without a schooling advanced physics can be difficult to say the least.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> Jeff Parr Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Guthrie Mass, Sometimes getting a simple straight answer here without a

> schooling advanced physics can be difficult to say the least.

No kidding. I'm mainly just asking for my own peace of mind, chances are my own experimentation will help out more than a forum post, but right now that's what I can do.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

is there a reason you need the DC power? i guess lets start there. if you can ditch the battery and the whole DC side of things it makes stuff a lot easier. do you have a headlight in mind?

most of my mopeds are setup very simple, AC halogen headlight with a 1 wire voltage regulator, a LED tail/brake light bulb.

this thread should finally get me to get off my ass and draw up some of the wiring schematics i use commonly on moped /motorcycle systems, been meaning to do that for awhile. Maybe tonight if i have some time when the kids go to bed.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> Jeff Parr Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Guthrie Mass, Sometimes getting a simple straight answer here without a

> schooling advanced physics can be difficult to say the least.

this is pretty common for the internet in general, people like to throw their weight around pretending to know more than they do by being unclear about it... i dunno why but its present on just about any forum. i dunno what satisfaction people get from it, negative attention i guess? I'm not a psychologist. its kinda like trying to talk politics with a homeless guy under a bridge, same effect. best to just ignore it and move on.

like i said, jeff and guthrie, i have this thing in my head i've been meaning to add to the wiki for years and its basically just like 5 or 6 simple wiring schematics for mopeds going from simple to more complex, i'll try to draw them out tonight if i have time.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Jeff Parr Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Guthrie Mass, Sometimes getting a simple straight answer here without

> a

>

> > schooling advanced physics can be difficult to say the least.

>

> this is pretty common for the internet in general, people like to throw

> their weight around pretending to know more than they do by being

> unclear about it... i dunno why but its present on just about any forum.

> i dunno what satisfaction people get from it, negative attention i

> guess? I'm not a psychologist. its kinda like trying to talk politics

> with a homeless guy under a bridge, same effect. best to just ignore it

> and move on.

>

> like i said, jeff and guthrie, i have this thing in my head i've been

> meaning to add to the wiki for years and its basically just like 5 or 6

> simple wiring schematics for mopeds going from simple to more complex,

> i'll try to draw them out tonight if i have time.

Answering your previous question:

2 words, turn signals.

Obviously I could try and find some AC compatible flashers and lights, but it seems LED’s are more widely available.

But overall my main goal is to wire turn signals directly into the generator (in my original plan through a battery or capacitor and some reg/rec circuits) so I don’t need a separate battery I’ll need to recharge on it’s own. I’ve done some research but haven’t found any clear setups.

Re: Wiring questions (puch e50)

Overpriced Parts /

Read this and if this pertains to you then fine, if you want to fight it you’re dumb as a box of rocks!

https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Puch_timing

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