Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

Dean Shearsmith /

Hi all. Just a quick one.. Recently bought a 1978 Honda PA50. I've been told to use 2 stroke, fully synthetic oil with ratio of 20ml to 1 litre.. Does this sound right to all you experts out there?

Many thanks.

Dean.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

try 40:1 and always use Pennzoil 50/50 air cooled 2 cycle oil ... The proof is my SACHS 1-d has been running fine for going on 17 years with out a hitch using this fine 2 cycle oil ..

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

Yes 20ml would be a 50:1 ratio. While you don't have to use synthetic, it is a good pick. Just be sure that your synthetic oil is not meant to be run at a super lean ratio. For instance, Amsoil Saber is designed to run in lawn equipment at up to 100:1.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

Synthetic is snake oil. Humans are so gullible.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Synthetic is snake oil. Humans are so gullible.

There's pretty good evidence you can run leaner with synthetic. Personally it's not my bag but I wouldn't say it's snake oil like some of the additives.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> There's pretty good evidence you can run leaner with synthetic.

What evidence? Where? I don't see any..

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

BTW'

Fuel is for engine cooling.

Oil is for engine lubing.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > frank dadog Wrote:

> > -------------------------------------------------------

> > There's pretty good evidence you can run leaner with synthetic.

>

> What evidence? Where? I don't see any..

What specifically are you looking for? There are countless people reporting problems with using synthetic at normal ratios and have to lean to 80:1 or 100:1 to prevent overheating. From racing 2T scooters to RC planes to outboards to snowmobiles. The manufacturers do testing and have adjusted ratios to reflect synthetics properties.

It's great to be skeptical but I'm not sure if you know what "snake oil" even means. Who is advertising or claiming properties of synthetic oil that have been shown to be false?

eta: there's also good data on synthetics and flow characteristics. again, not snake oil but science. not a big deal for mopeds but if you're running a sled at -40C running synthetic makes a proven difference.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

Charles Cole (OFMC) /

Best article from people who REALLY know 2Ts. Scroll down to 'oil migration', however there's a plethora of excellent info in the entire article.

http://www.klemmvintage.com/kaw500h1.htm

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> There are countless people

> reporting problems with using synthetic at normal ratios and have to

> lean to 80:1 or 100:1 to prevent overheating. From racing 2T scooters to

> RC planes to outboards to snowmobiles.

Much hearsay, Zero evidence. More oil doesn't cause overheating. Humans are gullible simpletons.

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> eta: there's also good data on synthetics and flow characteristics.

> again, not snake oil but science. not a big deal for mopeds but if

> you're running a sled at -40C running synthetic makes a proven

> difference.

Provide links to that scientific data.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

Simpletons / millennials believe 100/1 is awesome in everything.

And most weed wacker manufacturers say it's okay to go 100 / 1.

Then again they sell weed wackers.

If you have direct oil injection into the crankshaft bearings ya, but most of those systems are set up to be approximately 80/1 to 70/1 at WOT.

C3 bearings need a film of oil to float the balls on.

Exceeding 60/1 oil to gas ratio what cause premature bearing failure.

50/1 will insure long bearing life.

50/1 WILL NOT CAUSE HIGH RPM OIL GUMMING IF YOU'RE USING GOOD OIL.

OIL COMING OVERHEAT YOUR PISTON.

THEN YOUR SHIT WILL ZING AND POSSIBLY SMEAR THE PISTON ON THE CYLINDER WALL.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Steven Kwak Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 50/1 WILL NOT CAUSE HIGH RPM OIL GUMMING IF YOU'RE USING GOOD OIL.

> OIL COMING OVERHEAT YOUR PISTON.

> THEN YOUR SHIT WILL ZING AND POSSIBLY SMEAR THE PISTON ON THE CYLINDER

> WALL.

Hair-splitting speculation.

I use cheap petroleum stuff. It's "good oil". 30:1 ratio with no engine damage.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

Oil is for cooling... You remove the lube and see what temps you get. Fuel is for combustion... the opposite of cooling. The only thing that directly results in cooling is the fins or the water jacket.

Grab a gallon of 2t marine shit from walmart and mix 50:1. (20ml to 1L). This is tried and true. If you aren't trying to pull every bit of performance out of your bike possible, just don't sweat if its synthetic or not.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Charlie BUZZARD Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Oil is for cooling... You remove the lube and see what temps you get.

> Fuel is for combustion... the opposite of cooling. The only thing that

> directly results in cooling is the fins or the water jacket.

Lean jetting causes overheating. Oil provides a film between parts to stop them rubbing and welding together.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

Well fuel will have a cooling effect when you run rich enough to cause incomplete combustion and wasted fuel through the exhaust as well as reduced power which also will have a lower heat output.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> Much hearsay, Zero evidence. More oil doesn't cause overheating. Humans

> are gullible simpletons.

I'm sorry are you trolling or are you serious? First you correctly state "fuel is for engine cooling" then you state "less fuel doesn't cause overheating". More oil in the mix displaces fuel from the charge, leads to lean conditions and more heat.

When your argument contradicts itself it's time to reevaluate your argument.

Synthetic oils have less impurities. They perform better at higher and low temperatures and they don't break down as fast as conventional oils. This is all proven science.

You don't seem to have much of an argument. You just want to call people stupid for using synthetics. If you think it's stupid to spend extra money on synthetics that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I don't find it "necessary" either. But you look foolish trying to change the facts just to suit your opinion.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

< then you state "less fuel doesn't cause

> overheating".

Blind as a fucking bat. Read my post again. I stated more OIL doesn't cause overheating.

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> More oil in the mix displaces fuel from the charge, leads

> to lean conditions and more heat.

> When your argument contradicts itself it's time to reevaluate your

> argument.

> Synthetic oils have less impurities. They perform better at higher and

> low temperatures and they don't break down as fast as conventional oils.

> This is all proven science.

>

> You don't seem to have much of an argument. You just want to call people

> stupid for using synthetics. If you think it's stupid to spend extra

> money on synthetics that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I

> don't find it "necessary" either. But you look foolish trying to change

> the facts just to suit your opinion.

Petroleum is not "bad oil" for fucks sake. You failed to provide those links to scientific evidence.

"More oil in the mix displaces fuel from the charge, leads to lean conditions and more heat."... What a load of unsubstantiated drivel.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> Blind as a fucking bat. Read my post again. I stated more OIL doesn't

> cause overheating.

I guess comprehension isn't your strong suit. More oil means less fuel per charge. Capiche?

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > -------------------------------------------------------

> > 50/1 WILL NOT CAUSE HIGH RPM OIL GUMMING IF YOU'RE USING GOOD OIL.

> > OIL COMING OVERHEAT YOUR PISTON.

> > THEN YOUR SHIT WILL ZING AND POSSIBLY SMEAR THE PISTON ON THE

> CYLINDER

> > WALL.

>

> Hair-splitting speculation.

>

> I use cheap petroleum stuff. It's "good oil". 30:1 ratio with no engine

> damage.

You need to pull your face out of your girlfriend and do a little research.

Yes you can get away with 30/1 with no issues for the most part.

Old school technology ran looser clearance between the piston and cylinder wall.

They did this two allow the Piston room for thermal expansion.

Newer technology uses Hyperbaric Pistons.

They contain a silica content from 7 to 9 per cent.

This reduces the thermal expansion by close to 50%.

So they tightened up the clearance between the piston and cylinder wall.

If you run a heavy oil mix and or cheap oil in a tight clearance motor.

The oil will actually break down and begin to jail and gum.

This increases friction causing the Piston to expand.

This causes the oil to gum and sticking to the point even the gas cannot act as a thinning solvent.

Your head temps will appear fine but the Piston is drastically overheating due to the increase sidewall friction.

Then your engine will seize.

Years back Pelini actually went to 77 shop in San Francisco..

77 showed up, box full of seized kits.

The first thing out of their Factory Representatives mouth was how much oil are you running..

77 got schooled and told to run 60/1.

Yes your cylinder will be fine with leaner oil mix with the new oil blends.

But the bearings need oil to protect them from premature failure.

But go ahead beat a dead horse. (edited)

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> "More oil in the mix displaces fuel from the charge, leads to lean

> conditions and more heat."... What a load of unsubstantiated drivel.

You're obviously just trolling. Everyone knows what a ratio is, even you. More oil means less fuel.

You may want to step away for a bit and think on this. You're not making sense.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> You're obviously just trolling. Everyone knows what a ratio is, even

> you. More oil means less fuel.

>

> You may want to step away for a bit and think on this. You're not making

> sense.

Are you familiar with jetting changes to account for oil dilution?

Clearly not.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> > > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

> You need to pull your face out of your girlfriend and do a little

> research.

I'm hungry. Pussy tastes good.

> > > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

> If you run a heavy oil mix and or cheap oil in a tight clearance motor.

> The oil will actually break down and begin to jail and gum.

Any evidence?

Oil price makes no difference.

> > > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

> This increases friction causing the Piston to expand.

> This causes the oil to gum and sticking to the point even the gas cannot

> act as a thinning solvent.

> Your head temps will appear fine but the Piston is drastically

> overheating due to the increase sidewall friction.

> Then your engine will seize.

When will it seize?

30:1 for over a decade.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > > > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > > > -------------------------------------------------------

> > You need to pull your face out of your girlfriend and do a little

> > research.

>

> I'm hungry. Pussy tastes good.

>

> > > > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > > > -------------------------------------------------------

> > If you run a heavy oil mix and or cheap oil in a tight clearance

> motor.

> > The oil will actually break down and begin to jail and gum.

>

> Any evidence?

>

> Oil price makes no difference.

>

> > > > Steven Kwak Wrote:

> > > > -------------------------------------------------------

> > This increases friction causing the Piston to expand.

> > This causes the oil to gum and sticking to the point even the gas

> cannot

> > act as a thinning solvent.

> > Your head temps will appear fine but the Piston is drastically

> > overheating due to the increase sidewall friction.

> > Then your engine will seize.

>

> When will it seize?

>

> 30:1 for over a decade.

Nice try but you're just talking to the hand or in this case your fist rattling around in the hallway.

And I'm not going to continue with this conversation you're just looking for an argument you lost.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> When will it seize?

Nobody claimed your engine would seize if you didn't use synthetic.

I don't get it dude, you have a valid point, you don't need hyperbole to make it. Synthetics have some beneficial properties in certain applications, most of which none of us will ever experience. Conventional oils can be used to virtually the same effect without the the added cost. At the end of the day there's no substitute for proper care and maintenance.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Steven Kwak Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Nice try but you're just talking to the hand or in this case your fist

> rattling around in the hallway.

> And I'm not going to continue with this conversation you're just looking

> for an argument you lost.

Didn't provide any evidence to support your statements, then backed out of the conversation. You lose.

(edited)

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Lolita ✌ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Charlie BUZZARD Wrote:

> > -------------------------------------------------------

> > Oil is for cooling... You remove the lube and see what temps you get.

> > Fuel is for combustion... the opposite of cooling. The only thing

> that

> > directly results in cooling is the fins or the water jacket.

>

> Lean jetting causes overheating. Oil provides a film between parts to

> stop them rubbing and welding together.

Jesus... lean jetting can cause lover heating. Got a good bit to do with the fact that smaller jets mean less fuel and OIL.

Oil lube shit... to lessen friction... with leads to LOWER TEMPS...

As Ryan said, fuel COULD cool if you run so much you drown the combustion... As in no boom boom fire bang, way less heat. That's only when you're fuggin' up.

OIL IS TO COOL THE ENGINE... Get over it.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> > > Charlie BUZZARD Wrote:

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

> the fact that smaller jets mean less fuel and OIL.

Nope'

Only less fuel

Less fuel = less oil dilution = richer oil ratio

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Charlie BUZZARD Wrote:

> > > Oil is for cooling... You remove the lube and see what temps you

> get.

> > > Fuel is for combustion... the opposite of cooling. The only thing

> > that

> > > directly results in cooling is the fins or the water jacket.

> >

> > Lean jetting causes overheating. Oil provides a film between parts to

> > stop them rubbing and welding together.

>

> Jesus... lean jetting can cause lover heating. Got a good bit to do with

> the fact that smaller jets mean less fuel and OIL.

>

> Oil lube shit... to lessen friction... with leads to LOWER TEMPS...

>

> As Ryan said, fuel COULD cool if you run so much you drown the

> combustion... As in no boom boom fire bang, way less heat. That's only

> when you're fuggin' up.

>

> OIL IS TO COOL THE ENGINE... Get over it.

This is entirely backwards. Oil has very little to do with cooling, it prevents friction. Heat is generated by combustion. The air to fuel ratio and timing determine how hot the charge burns and how much of that heat is transferred to the cylinder and piston. If that ratio favours air (lean) too much (>13%) the engine will begin to overheat regardless of whether you're running 20:1 or 100:1. (A lean charge burns slower, essentially pushing the piston instead of punching it. More power is transferred to the piston along with more heat.)

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

Wrong a lean charge Burns faster so you get a more complete burn in the cylinder at a higher temperature and less heat in the pipe.

When do you use an oxy acetylene torch it's oxygen that makes it burn the steel.

This Thread is just so fucked up with bad info.

Re: Oil Ratio: 1978 PA50

> Steven Kwak Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Wrong a lean charge Burns faster so you get a more complete burn in the

> cylinder at a higher temperature and less heat in the pipe.

> When do you use an oxy acetylene torch it's oxygen that makes it burn

> the steel.

>

> This Thread is just so fucked up with bad info.

NO.

Please stop spreading false information. If you don't know Google it, I've explained it so anyone can understand but feel free to read up on the combustion process.

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