Re: Brand New American Moped

trick METRIC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm glad Devin chimed in as well. This whole "make

> it legal" thing has been a thorn in my side for as

> long as I've been building bikes. I have no

> greater desire then to build production 2-stroke

> mopeds from scratch in the USA. It's never going

> to happen.

>

> In the USA, as a motor vehicle manufacturer, you

> apply for a license from the SAE to issue a VIN to

> a complete vehicle. The vehicle must be complete

> with the engine, as the engine specification is

> coded in the VIN. To be able to issue a VIN number

> the vehicle must meet all federal emissions and

> safety standards. There's no such thing as "good

> enough for the EU, good enough for the USA".

>

> The MSO is the easy part. You contract with a

> printing house that prints watermarked MSO

> documents. Not all that cheap, but doable in

> volumes of over 500.

>

> That said, I will make frames or even complete

> bikes for anybody. Getting it on the road legal is

> your problem.

Something tells me all the manufacturers left the moped business for a reason - if you could make money on mopeds Honda & Yamaha would be doing it now.

It's easy on an old frame, the DMV in WA state doesn't care about it as long as it has a VIN -- they don't have mopeds in their system, so they just do a write in.

I rode around without a plate, you probably won't get stopped. I'm guessing they'll sell so few of these that they aren't too concerned about doing this legally.

Re: Brand New American Moped

FREE Mopedarmy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> By the time any EPA testing happens on these they

> will have lifans on them

Pennsylvania Legislature took care of this too. All new mopeds/scooters with Chinese clone motors where banned with a bill that passed a few years ago. Some European scooter dealers hired a lobbyist to help them get rid of the flood of Chinese clone-motored bikes.

This killed my fall back business plan of building top-tank bikes with Chinese scooter motors.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Epa is not an issue because the bikes are designed for your VINTAGE motor. Not a running bike. Which can be regged in most states no problem. If there so happened to be a crate motor that someone wants to bolt on instead. That doesn't affect the roller. In many states you just need frame number and motor number and you are golden. There are a few states where these will be hard/maybe not possible to reg. But most places will be fine.

Anyways. Super excited to see this come to life!

Re: Brand New American Moped

I guess you aren't following. You can't issue a new VIN for a vintage engined bike. VINs are US or international. Individual state laws don't apply. The feds will crush your entire stock of illegal bikes. Even after they have been sold. It happens all the time with grey market vehicles.

Re: Brand New American Moped

There is a difference in point of view that is causing some of the confusion.

As an individual - you can do whatever you feel you need to do to get your bike legal where you live. If you follow the letter of the law, or not, is your choice.

As a manufacturer - you have to make sure you follow the law in every location you do business. You don't have a choice if you want to be in business.

A prominent retailer has told me, and other new aftermarket moped frame manufacturers, that it's not worth the legal repercussions to sell unVINed frames for customers to put salvaged VIN plates on.

I sell "tubular sculptures" with a couple holes drilled in the head tube. What you decide to use them for is up to you.

Re: Brand New American Moped

How the small custom bike companies do it;

http://www.motorcycle-manufacturer-license.org/motorcycle-frame-kit-manufacturer-licenses.htm

http://www.motorcycle-manufacturer-license.org/VIN-number-labels.htm

http://www.motorcycle-manufacturer-license.org/MCO-MSO-replacement-duplicates.htm

Motovox now has assigned VIN labels and MSOs for their Motopeds. https://motoped.com/

Motoped dealers are even able to issue MSO/MCOs retroactively as long as you can prove where you purchased the kit. I have not heard of any Motoped owner yet who has not been able to register and ride their Motoped legally here in the states. I'm sure there's someone out there that I'm not aware of....just saying.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1432733183623914/?refid=17

Re: Brand New American Moped

The wording on that site is a bit misleading, for a reason. He wants you to hire him as a consultant.

As for the Motopeds... Yes. They can issue VINs for bikes sold as kits that include engines. Motoped kit motors are specific EPA approved motors.

from motoped.com -

* Our Motoped 49cc engines are EPA certified, and have the only internal 2-stage fully automatic transmissions available. Alternatively, if you choose to buy the box kit with no engine, the internal combustion engine you install needs to be an EPA certified engine, and in California a CARB certified engine is required to be legal. No such requirements exist for electric engines at this time.

Re: Brand New American Moped

The majority of motopeds have been sold as kits or rolling chassis with owners using either Clone pit bike bike engines or Vintage Honda horizontal engines to complete them before getting registered in their home states.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Barn Fresh Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The majority of motopeds have been sold as kits or

> rolling chassis with owners using either Clone pit

> bike bike engines or Vintage Honda horizontal

> engines to complete them before getting registered

> in their home states.

As I said -

There is a difference in point of view that is causing some of the confusion.

As an individual - you can do whatever you feel you need to do to get your bike legal where you live. If you follow the letter of the law, or not, is your choice.

As a manufacturer - you have to make sure you follow the law in every location you do business. You don't have a choice if you want to be in business.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Hepatitis J [OFMC] /

So who wants to let me test ride one of these things around LA for a season?

Re: Brand New American Moped

Andrew Squiggman /

Hepatitis J Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So who wants to let me test ride one of these

> things around LA for a season?

has no motor currently. it can only be pedaled around a warehouse while phones ring in the background

Re: Brand New American Moped

Barn Fresh Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The majority of motopeds have been sold as kits or

> rolling chassis with owners using either Clone pit

> bike bike engines or Vintage Honda horizontal

> engines to complete them before getting registered

> in their home states.

Substitute clone Peugeot 103 engines for Lifans and old Honda engines and it's exactly what 77/Indigan is doing. Shouldn't these 103 engines be grandfathered in under whatever emissions laws keep original 103 engines legal?

Re: Brand New American Moped

A few years ago Jesse James got in trouble for fifty bikes he sold in the past that weren't CARB compliant and was hit with a 270k fine. The EPA fine is a maximum of something like 37k PER VEHICLE. Hyundai and Kia paid a 100 million penalty in the past for violations and volkswagen could be on the hook for 18 billion (it'll probably get settled for less). The point being, as a manufacture you have to be careful (or have deep pockets) because the government doesn't play around when it comes to that sort of thing.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Technically and legally, they're not "manufacturing" anythng except a frame.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Andrew Squiggman /

J Blank Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Technically and legally, they're not

> "manufacturing" anythng except an illegal frame.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Maybe moped Army should team up with the scooter trash and get some lobbyists.

Re: Brand New American Moped

FREE Mopedarmy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> J Blank Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Technically and legally, they're not

> > "manufacturing" anythng except an illegal frame.

Maybe where you live, chief. Sucks for you. I'm buying one. All I need is a clean VIN. (edited)

Re: Brand New American Moped

trick METRIC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> There is a difference in point of view that is

> causing some of the confusion.

>

> As an individual - you can do whatever you feel

> you need to do to get your bike legal where you

> live. If you follow the letter of the law, or not,

> is your choice.

>

> As a manufacturer - you have to make sure you

> follow the law in every location you do business.

> You don't have a choice if you want to be in

> business.

Thank you for trying to explain the "point of view" difference. As a dealer we can't dance around the laws either.

Re: Brand New American Moped

I never thought about the angle of the EPA getting involved on a federal angle. That's a headache.

I have been following the Cleveland Cycle Works guys for quite some time now. I notice that it takes them forever to come out with anything new, and their initial release was horribly delayed. I know lots of that did have to so with redtape.

If it doesn't work as a complete bike they'll still sell as kits in plenty of states. Georgia does no registration for mopeds.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Thomas HSB Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I never thought about the angle of the EPA getting

> involved on a federal angle. That's a headache.

>

> I have been following the Cleveland Cycle Works

> guys for quite some time now. I notice that it

> takes them forever to come out with anything new,

> and their initial release was horribly delayed. I

> know lots of that did have to so with redtape.

'Merica ain't what it used to be. Once upon a time, if a few enterprising guys figured out a product for a market that wasn't being served, they made some money and customers got something they wanted. Now the government crushes the little entrepreneurs with regulations and red tape, but the big interests can afford the cost or buy their way around the regs. These are typical experiences. Sigh. Our silly little hobby is just a little shit being squeezed out by a system designed by lobbyists for the big interests. Back in the '60s, there were cheap, good mopes. In the '70s and '80s, there were so many brands you knew it had to shake out. Then government's heavy hand fell on the 2-stroke segment, and Tomos was the only one that managed to devise a product to qualify. They had a good product and a good-enough supporting business, but then they too were crushed by the cost of regulations and red tape. I hate to go political on this, but I love mopeds and 2-strokes, and government makes it so difficult. Why should they even care? (edited)

Re: Brand New American Moped

peter heid Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am not planning on buying one, and how do I

> become a sissy when I am explaining that this

> moped will not be able to be sold in NY as a motor

> vehicle for highway use. It is very irresponsible

> for anyone to claim otherwise. We are talking

> about a new vehicle here, not a 1979 moped that is

> on the certified list of accepted vehicles. Just

> imagine buying a new vehicle of any type and

> having DMV tell you it can't be registered. Law

> suit waiting to happen. Hopefully buyers and

> sellers are listening.

Dude went from not wanting to buy one to sniveling about what he'll do from a dealer's perspective.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Dave Scrod Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Dude went from not wanting to buy one to sniveling

> about what he'll do from a dealer's perspective.

I am a dealer that is why I know enough not to buy one or try to sell them. That is a dealers perspective, even if you are not smart enough to understand.

Re: Brand New American Moped

As the King of Intelligence you probably understand there's a lot of stuff you can't legally sell. Do you bitch about all of it?

Think about other stuff and let the people who are excited about this be just that. (edited)

Re: Brand New American Moped

Dave Scrod Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As the King of Intelligence you probably

> understand there's a lot of stuff you can't

> legally sell. Do you bitch about all of it?

>

> Think about other stuff and let the people who are

> excited about this be just that.

What I don't like is when someone tries to sell something that they claim to be legal to sell, and it is not. What other motorcycle items can't we sell ? We could sell this moped, but only as a non highway vehicle, and it would not hold up for that kind of use. Also with a 38 inch wheel base it will be hard to sell to an adult, and it is too short to be safe, in my opinion.

I am not saying don't get excited about it, but I am saying don't expect to be able to legally register it. Don't expect to see any legitimate dealers selling it as a road vehicle.

Again From the 77 website:

"This moped comes with a VIN number, and MSO, so titling is a zero hassle."

Re: Brand New American Moped

Re: Brand New American Moped

Seems spendy tho, I think Chinese scooters are under $1000

If mopeds made sense here Honda would be selling them, but I'm sure they can find 20 people to buy, it's not like they're trying to sell tons of these to compete with scooters and motorcycles.

Ideally it would arrive on a crate from China and you have set it up and make all necessary adjustments, maybe laws on that are tough

Upgrades would be nice, like fuel injection and CDI, laws get weird tho once something can go over 30mph, a cop could bust me for not registering as a motorcycle instead of moped, but I don't think anyone cares much.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Andrew Squiggman /

Re: Brand New American Moped

What would I need to be an authorized distributor?

Re: Brand New American Moped

I'd love to find a source for the engines used on the kymco People. I think it's a Minarelli clone but long cased so it accepts a 16" wheel. You could build a fun moped around that.

Re: Brand New American Moped

Thomas HSB Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd love to find a source for the engines used on

> the kymco People. I think it's a Minarelli clone

> but long cased so it accepts a 16" wheel. You

> could build a fun moped around that.

Those kymco super 9s are pretty sweet.

Want to post in this forum? We'd love to have you join the discussion, but first:

Login or Create Account