Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

She was out in the rain 1 night and already showing some surface rust on the clutch..

Photos of how the cdi/coil are rigged up;

Brought it inside to wait for the next wrenching session. Should have time to pull the carb and inspect it tonight

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Put my cheapo compression gauge on. Was getting right at 105psi.. I was afraid of that. Too low you think? Probably could use a bottom end rebuild.

Might try my friends better quality gauge, but pretty sure this thing is somewhat accurate.

Pulled the carb and its a sha 13.13 with a 65 jet. May be running a bit rich, but the plug looks spot on

Next I'm going to get fresh gas, properly gapped plug, and give it another go. After that i'll break down top end and see if there's anything out of the ordinary.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Got it running! Not idling at all just like the PO said. I kicked it off the stand and tried to get up my front hill, barely any power. I'd say the low compression is to blame for that.

Going to replace the plug, get a couple different jets, and maybe research modifying the intake. i believe its a stock box

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Bryan Butler /

Nice pictures. I'm going to have to use yours as a reference for when I tackle my TFR (currently working on the Kinetic Magnum). Great help on those pictures as well.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Sounds good, I probably post too much about my projects, but my memory's shit so its nice having something on each money pit

Not much progress. Called a local auto store and asked them to look up a new plug for it, they number on my plug wasn't even in his system haha. The plug still looks good was just going to grab a new one to mark it off the list.

I tried to start it with the airbox, without the box, with the box but no filter element. All different idle adjustment(that's what i assume the spring screw is on the SHA?) No luck. It doesn't even try to idle, no throttle no running.

I kicked it off the stand again and it definitely has a major lack of power. Going to try a couple different jetting, and mess with my float level before breaking it down. I need to research tuning the SHA more...

More photos for no reason;

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Bryan Butler /

Sounds pretty good. Have you tried the small auto parts stores like NAPA? The NGK series that are recommended for our mopeds are normally there and if they don't have it in NGK they have it cross-referenced with Champion.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

I really like my Kinetic. Really bright lights, really nice brakes, performance and stock parts (Vespa) for days, one of the best ignitions on any moped ever, decent suspension. My advice would be to go ahead and loctite everything and get some better rear shocks.

Go ahead and clean the outside of the head right around the decompression valve.

The goal being to see if oil/shit leaks from around the decomp and thus the lowish compression. The other thing is that cheap compression gauges suck. I am not one of those, "buy only the most expensive tools" guys but Harbor Freight compression gauges suck. They just make shit up.

As for the no idle I would bet its the carburetor.

There is a little hole below the main venturi there. I am pretty sure its on the shim/intake side but I am not 100% sure without having one in my hand.

It is straight up tiny. Like you have to blast it with carb cleaner and blow it out with air and if you want to poke it you need to use a strand from a spun brake cable.

If its a 13mm SHA that means someone was trying to do performance upgrades so its possible other stuff was fucked with.

I also had a coil go bad on a Kinetic once and it had a kind of weak idle before hand so thats something to try if you have a spare coil laying around.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Bryan Butler /

Awesome idea, looks like I have been taking the hard way in mating the two.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

That's a sweet backyard view.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Decomp has been removed and plugged. I double checked it already with trying to get more on the compression gauge.

GREAT info Keith! I'll try that this week and see if it helps any. I definitely have an exhaust leak, so i'll get that sealed better before the next attempt as well.

Preeesh adam! it's great out here in south western VA. Just got back from a great hike with some insane views.

No more peds for a few days, will get back sometime this week

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Yea... We don't get hills, so I appreciate eve the little ones.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

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here's what I did with mine. Finishing up on tuesday.

-Kinetic TFR reinforced subframe, frame, and forks

-Vespa Malossi Reed intake speed case

-Vespa Malossi Big D.E.P.S cylinder/piston/hi-comp head

-19mm phbg carb + Malossi hi-flow filter

-Vespa variated wheel set

-big Simonini Pipe

-Polini speed control variator, stock rear w/blue polini spring

-Olympia race gear set

-custom rattle can paint job

Let me know if you have any questions, and I will repost when I am finished with this. I just R&R'd everything on this bike, and it is all fresh in my memory. This is also my third TFR, I know these bikes pretty well. email me if you need some answers man. and good luck to you. can't wait to see it going!

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Also, I have a ton of stock parts leftover if you are looking for anything.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

there is a tiny little hole hiding in the bottom of your carb slide zone. blow that out with carb cleaner through the main jet, your idle will magically return!

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

That unit is nuts Aaron! Shit is going to rip!! I'd love to variate this one, but don't think i'll be putting any/hardly anymore cash into it

Interested in reinforcing the sub frame. how'd you go about it? plates, tubes, and welding?

Talked with the PO of this ped and he said he rejetted up and down with no help on getting it to idle. Haven't got a response back on how the bottom end looked when he rebuilt it though.

I read Bryan's post that sounded similar to how mine acts on start ups. It doesn't kick start, more like i have to pedal it over a couple times to get it going. Basically a kick and a half will get it running with some throttle. As soon as throttle is released it dies.

I'm going to seal up the exhaust more, and reinstall the carb with the method above. If its no better I will start the tear down.

Edit - Sounds good Graham, I give the carbs another good cleaning. I feel like its carb related, but the PO was having the same issue even when the carb was brand new out of the box. (edited)

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

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You can buy 1'x1' squares of 1/8" stainless sheet steel at home depot in the roofing section for $10. I bought one and made a support for both sides and the little carb blocker since I removed the rear fender. you can see in the pictures. no welds necessary for this one. though I haven't tested it yet, but it seems much stronger than before. I did use an angle grinder a file and some sandpaper. and titanium drill bits to get through the stainless.

*you can make a nice template by placing a piece of cardboard against the sided of the subframe and applying pressure along the edge of the subframe as to dimple the cardboard. then cut it out and trace it on your steel sheet.

** I believe you will have to remove the engine and the rear wheel to properly mount it with nuts and bolts like I did.

*** I have a welder and opted out because the alloy of that subframe is so weak I was affraid it would just melt.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Patrick Keaton /

Why did you put the shocks on upside down ? It looks like they will get dirty that way.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

had to. no clearance at the frame for the springs. shimming them would put them in a V formation.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

on a side note. Plan on fixing this thing regularly for a little while. When things break, see if there is a vespa equivalent available. they are almost always better than the kinetic stuff. Careful though. alot of stuff looks close but isn't the same. Get a tube of thread lock and use liberally on most nuts. This thing will rattle to pieces, but once you get them "set up" they can compete with the best of bikes IMO. Treatland has pretty much anything you could want. If you have questions about compatibility just ask. Best of luck to you my good sir.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Good schooling Aaron, I have all the loctites from the drz, and I'll keep an eye out for vespa swaps.

This is going to be the spare/ the girls ped. I highly doubt it'll get as much attention as yours

I took another attempt at getting her running last night. I pulled the carb poked out the idle jet hole and sprayed it out. Double checked my float needle(could use a replacement, but is OK right now)

Used some aluminum can to make a quick exhaust shim and rigged it up with a metal hose clamp.

It started well, has more power, but still struggling. Not idling still, so i kicked it off the center stand and it barely made it up my hill. Rode for a second, but it sounded like it was 4 stoking bad. Shut it down and roll her back down in the shop. I started it again to feel for air leaks, exhaust checked out, but i could feel a leak from the cylinder->head.

I'll pull the top end off replace gaskets, then recheck compression. If still low i'll do a complete rebuild. If ok I'll move onto playing with jetting.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

be careful with head leaks. If you look on the left side of the engine (while riding) you will see a black cover plate. that cover is directing wind from your flywheel over your cylinder/head cooling fins. You will always feel air there. the thing to look for is if you put your hand real close, you will feel the difference in pressure as the engine goes put put put. the same as the feeling at the end of the exhaust. A head leak might not respond to carb spray though since it only leaks during compression.

I have a hunch that your crank seal is blown. I have had that happen twice. I might suggest a full engine rebuild. $30 gets you a rebuild kit. yo will get all new gaskets and seals and 2 new crank bearings. While you are in there you can bore out the intake. Search the wiki for vespa engine rebuild how to's. It might be easier than you think. A flywheel puller/case splitter is a huge help but not totally necessary, as ong as you have the points style flywheel with the little observation window cut out.

On other quick dumb thing. Make sure your carb is fully inserted onto the intake. and that you have the appropriate rubber o-ring and plastic shim inserted. that is a common leak spot.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Sounds good, didn't know that about the engine. I don't think rebuilding the engine is that much of a chore. I've read over the wiki and feel like i can manage it. I have a friend that is head moto mechanic at a shop near by. He's always been there to help when i get myself in a pinch. Will definitely match the intake when cases are split.

I could definitely feel are coming from around the head, i was just revving it on the center stand. I will look more closely to see if it was from the flywheel or an actual leak.

I've looked over the carb, the plastic shim is in there. I'm unsure if there's a o-ring in there. I've read the 'fix my vespa leak' threads though. Didn't want to remove the shim last night. The o-ring go in first then the plastic shim right?

It did have more power after i messed with it, so an air leak on the intake side is still possible.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Patrick Keaton /

Which way does the seal face when it is installed ? I got a took apart engine and not sure about it. I did not take it apart is the reason.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

The seal looks kinda like this:

]^[ ]^[

The pointy parts face out towards the ignition. Unless I've been doing something wrong myself.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Patrick Keaton /

Attached is a file of a seal. Is this the side that faces out ? Do you just press it in, or do you have to use a sealent or something ? (edited)

vespa ciao seal.jpg

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Yes, I think that's the side that goes out. The concave side goes in. You can press it in by hand (maybe use a small screwdriver), just make sure it's even.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Yes, o-ring first then the plastic shim. I have seen them without the o-ring. But I can almost assure you they seal better with one of those. Although after I looked it up, it seems there is a type 1 and type 2 shim. type 2 looks shorter to accommodate the ring. probably not too big an issue though. The big thing is to make sure that the carb is pushed on all the way. I usually work a screwdriver between the carb and the subframe to kind of gently pry it on. It also helps a bit to move the motor forward, though it isn't necessary. Plus that requires you to slack the exhaust and remove the belt.

If you remove the head, it will tell you if it is leaking. There will be burnt oil/gas creeping out, visible on either the head, the gasket, or the base, or a combination. Most likely on the area supported by only one stud.

If your leak is pre-combustion, you can do a plug read to find out. But you have to do a little research first. Here is a chart on how to read a plug, If you are uncertain how (Sorry, I really have no idea what skill level you are at). Now you have to find out what your bike is jetted to. pop off the carb bowl and see what number your main jet is... Now, I am assuming you have a 65cc kit of some type, a del orto 13:13 carb, and a performance pipe of some sort. You should be jetted in the 65-70 neighborhood. Depending on the size of your expansion chamber. If you do a plug chop. (directions here) You should find that it reads lean, even though you are jetted properly. This is because your leak is bringing more air (or inconsistent amounts of air) to your fixed ratio of gas/air.

I hope this helps you. I love kinetics. I wish more people would realize their hidden beauty. Keep this one alive man!

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

My plastic shim has a lip that the intake sits flush on. Treats is out of the short shims and orings. I'll check around the local hardware shop to see if i can find anything to use.

Definitely made sure i had the card on as far forward as possible. Had a couple hands on it to be sure i had it seated last time.

No worries on the skill level. Its always nice to have more info than i need. I've been working/reading plugs on my gs500 and drz400's for a bit over a year, no expert, but starting to get an eye for it.

65 main jet in 13.13. Plug looks great which really threw me off. I'm leaning more towards a bottom end leak as well.

I ordered a full rebuild kit from treats, after i get the Garelli sorted out I'll be digging into this one.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Might as well bore out the intake and/or get a stronger crank if you haven't done that.

Re: cheap Kinetic project, bad idea?

Sweet. I think the rebuild will definitely help you out. Also, I don't know if anyone before mentioned the decompression valve, but that is another good leak spot. When you rebuild make sure that thing is clean as a whistle, and slides in and out smoothly.

P.S. Just heat didn't get my case halves apart on the kinetic. The bearings were a little too tight (or maybe my map gas torch didn't heat up fast enough). Zippymopedparts.com has a case splitter/flywheel puller too that really eases the whole ordeal. You may not need it but if you can't get the case halves apart, that is the solution. I would have linked it for you but his sight is closed for a vacation until july 9th. He is actually another good resource for parts. but it is a limited selection of mostly stock stuff and he charges A LOT for them. Nonetheless I have made several orders with him, just based on availability. Let us know how it goes yea?

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