the power dispute.

What's better for making a moped go?

A 2-cycle engine or a 4-cycle engine?

A 2-cycle engine certainly has it's advantages over 4 strokers, but then again a 4-cycle engine isn't without it's merits.

A 2-cycle engine has no valves or camshaft and has fewer moving parts (and fewer parts overall) which makes it much lighter than the comparative 4-cycle engine.

But a 4-cycle engine can deliver more low end torque (not always but can) than a 2-cycle engine. And because a 4-cycle engine when running properly does not burn it's oil supply runs cleaner than a 2-cycle engine.

Now lets look at fuel economy and power.

Every down stroke on a 2-cycle engine is a power stroke so you have combustion ever revolution of the crankshaft. Now in a 4-cycle engine every other down stroke is a power stroke- so you have combustion every other revolution.

Now you'd think that because a 2-cycle engine fires twice as often as a 4-cycle engine it would make twice as much power, but if thats what your thinking you're wrong. Why? because 2-cycle engines rely on the pressure of the incoming charge of gas and air to push out the exhaust. This leaves exhaust gas in the cylinder with the fresh charge and means there is less to burn so less power is made per power stroke than on the 4-cycle engine which dedicates an entire stroke just to pushing out exhaust gases, and there-for less burned gas remains in the cylinder when fresh gas comes in and is burned.

There is a way however for a 2-cycle engine to make far more power by the more complete exhalation of exhaust gasses. This requires different port timing so that more exhaust gas can exit while more fresh gas can enter the cylinder. This would mean having a taller exhaust port so exhaust gasses can begin leaving the cylinder earlier and a intake port that is extended further down the cylinder wall to allow more time for the fresh charge of gas from the crankcase to come in. But now there is a new problem- unburnt gas and oil is lost with the exhaust gas in the effort to better scavenge exhaust from the cylinder creating a powerful engine that runs very dirty and wastes gas. I'm going to guess that engineers of small 2-cycle engine are going for economy rather than power most of the time.

And the final point: weight power and gas mileage.

A 2-cycle engine is lighter than a 4-cycle engine and can produce marginally higher horse power for it size- it there for uses less power (and gas) to haul it's own weight and more to haul yours. A 4-cycle engine offers cleaner burning and can deliver better gas mileage but is heavier so if you spend time actually pedalling your moped it gives you a little extra exercise- and it also has to use more of it's power hauling it's own weight as well.

There is no conlusion this writing, it is inconclusive- maybe you have an opinion over what the better type is.

= this can't be the proper spelling, or is it?

And if you really must have a source

Here is one :General Power Mechanics- 1968 Mc Graw hill

Re: the power dispute.

Above all else, remember that mopeds were designed as cheap, efficient, reliable, economical, and repairable transportation for workers in Europe.

If a two stroke filled the bill, that was the engine of choice for its simpilcity.

Jim

There is no dispute (over power)

If you limit this discussion just to "which makes the most horsepower" without supercharging in any form...

Then there is no dispute over which makes more power.

For a given displacement... a 2 stroke will always make more HP than a 4 stroke.

Even with good useable mid range and even adequate low end.

Example >>...Dirtbikes.. A 'latest generation" 250cc 2 stroke makes 45 to 50 RWHP.

............................The latest 250cc 4 stroke makes 32 RWHP

...................... Which is almost identical to the latest 125cc 2 strokes

................. (but the 125 2 strokes have less low and midrange power)

Example >> Roadrace bikes.. latest generation 1000cc 4 strokes can make 280 HP.

... Latest generation 500cc 2 strokes extrapolated out to 1000cc make 380 HP

(despite being tuned for mid-range)

So the truth is that 2 strokes still retain almost twice the HP per CC as a 4 stroke if you are talking peak HP only.

Or... if tuned for more midrange... they still make 50% more peak HP.

Too bad the US Government is virtually outlawing almost any 2 strokes in almost any form.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Other advantages of 2 strokes ??... basically 3 moving parts... very much cheaper to produce the motor itself.

Very much cheaper also... to do a 2 stroke rebuild.

But 2 strokes wear out faster.

And they generally don't burn as clean... (that is not entirely true nowadays)... Honda and Aprilia and another manufacturer all have 2 strokes that could pass US emission regulations (with catalytic converters and carefully calibrated fuel injection systems)

... But they don't believe there is a market large enough to justify production.

Re: There is no dispute (over power)

"modern" 2-cycle engines are very clean buring compared to their simple and older counterparts. What I would classify as a modern 2-cycle is nearly any engine with a self metering oil injection system- these systems lubricate the engine better and with less oil and less smoke than mixing the oil with the gas. Not to mention far less carbon build up. Also because the bearings in these systems are pressure lubricated more power can be made. I think 2-cycle engines are better than 4-cycles in nearly every respect but 4-cycle engines still have advantages over 2 strokers. And with new technology 4-cycle engine are making more power. But the 4-cycle engine weakest point has been with it since the begining and that would be valves- which can leak or become burnt and suffer from many other dissorders.

Name a 2 stroke with "pressure lubed" br

As you stated.

Name one.

And frankly dude... You really don't know what you are talking about.

Yeah... those pesky valves in 4 strokes are sheer hell ain't they?

You are full of blah blah.

Have you ever owned a moped or motorcycle ?

Or are you just reading this crap out of some book ?

spota read "pressure lubed" bearings

Name one.

Re: the power dispute.

Ron Brown /

Fred,

I think you're right about Ryan, however, Villiers, Scott, Velocette and here is a 50cc 2 stroke that does not pollute:

http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcvespa/et2.html

I am assuming it also has pressure lubed bearings, there does not seem to be any other way to do it.

They are talking like this should have been in production for 3 years, anyone heard of it?

Ron

lotta confusion

he said ...essentially... "the pressure lubricated bearings in these MODERN 2 strokes".... blah blah blah

(the word modern was at the beginning of the paragraph... but...)

So... no... Villiers and Scott and Velocette don't count... for Schnuerle's sake!

And ... I had heard about the Vespa motor... and an Aprilia motor... both of which were supposed to pass US emmissions standards... but I didn't pay that much more attention to them.

Re: lotta confusion

Ron Brown /

Fred,

I concede.

I will try to pay attention.

I will try to pay attention.

I will try to pay attention.

I will try to pay attention.

I will try to pay attention.

But, if it exists, I think the Vespa qualifies. Did you check out the link? It looks like a really clever engine.

I think the Aprilia VDue (sp) actually went into production but was withdrawn because of fuel injection problems.

Ron.

VESPA ET2 Iniezione

Ron Brown /

Fred,

I tried searching for this and all I could find was an English site which refered to a 2000 model but had no pricing. It seems they are now building a 50cc 4 stroke so maybe this is an indication that the fuel injection did not work so well.

Ron

Re: spota read "pressure lubed" bearing

Hmmm,

lets see, pressure lubrication was an option on early Saab 2-cycle cars.

Came as standard on the Subaru 360- and suzuki later used a similar system that injected oil into the bearings and a tiny amount into the cylinder. Some modern 2-cycle snowmobiles also come with this. If you go to a motorcycle shop and look through their selection of 2-cycle oil some will have the text :for injector engines.

Re: spota read "pressure lubed" bearing

By modern I meant any engine with an oil injection system, which did not come into it's own until the 70's. Although oil regulators that mixed oil with gas automatically had been available since the late 50's from DKW who first used the system on their cars but I beleive also later fitted it to some of their more expensive bikes.

Re: spota read "pressure lubed" bearing

Ron Brown /

Ryan,

Nothing is new.

Scott, ca 1030's used direct bearing lubrication as di Villiers and Velocette, ca WWII.

Most "oil injection" engines squirt oil into the intake where it mixes with the gas/air. This is included in the "for injector use" spec. on 2 stroke oils.

Ron

Re: Name a 2 stroke with "pressure lubed&quot

Try going to: http://www.suzukicycles.com/faq/tcheng19.htm

For a short description of CCI which stands for Crankcase-cylinder-injection.

And vavles are the weakest part of the system- at high speeds they float causing backfiring and loss of power they can also stick open or closed, they can burn or be swallowed by the engine causing lots of damage- if made slightly wrong they leak (which in turn leads to them burning...again)

Have you ever owned a moped or motorcycle or snowmobile or outboard motor boat . If you've owned all of these then you certainly have owned more than I have.

Re: Name a 2 stroke with "pressure lubed&quot

Ron Brown /

Sorry to jump in here Fred.

Ryan, what has that link got to do with "pressure lubricated bearings"?

It even describes CCI (Crankcase-cylinder-injection) as injecting oil into the carburetor. I am sure that is a mis-translation and it actually injects into the intake tract.

I don't even want to go to the 2 vs 4 stroke argument. Personally I have never owned a 2 stroke that gave me the reliability and longevity of a 4 stroke, even with all those extra parts.

Ron

You are a great source of misinformation

> Try going to: http://www.suzukicycles.com/faq/tcheng19.htm

> For a short description of CCI which stands for

> Crankcase-cylinder-injection.

No... You go there and read whatever you want... I know more about those things than you will by reading whatever it is you want to read.

Pressure lubed bearings means the oil is supplied under pressure.. those old CCI Suzuki's don't develop any pressure... they used Mikuni manufactured oil pumps that "trickled" the oil in.

So they are NOT "pressure lubricated bearings"

And.... In case you didn't know it... those 2 stroke Suzuki motorcycles were discontinued 20 to 25 years ago.... Real modern.

>Some modern 2-cycle snowmobiles also come with this (oil injection).

Oh my... Wrong again... all modern snowmobiles and jet skis come with oil injection... but it is NOT injected to the bearings.

It is tricked into the intake tracts... not even squirted... it just oozes out of a hole.

The airstream pushes it towards the spinning crank... where it gets blown off/drips into the crank... quite crude... but proven effective none the less.

> And vavles are the weakest part of the system- at high speeds

> they float causing backfiring and loss of power they can also

> stick open or closed, they can burn or be swallowed by the

> engine causing lots of damage- if made slightly wrong they

> leak (which in turn leads to them burning...again)

blah blah blah.... Right... good theory.. but in truth 4 strokes are about the most reliable engines there are.. thats why they get used for almost everything

And... you've never floated the valves on anything in your life... you read it in a book.

I also bet you've never held a 4 stroke valve in your hand in your life.

I bet you don't even have a drivers license.

> Have you ever owned a moped or motorcycle or snowmobile or

> outboard motor boat . If you've owned all of these then you

> certainly have owned more than I have.

Re: the power dispute.

gimmyjimmy /

fellas,

what about our dear Mr. Wankel?

http://www.monito.com/wankel/motorcycles.html

I am a great source of misinformation

I never stated that the oil injection in snowmobiles was to the bearings. You must have imagined that.

you are right about floating valves- but I have had valves stick and I've had valves burn. A freind of mine has had a valve swallowed by the engine (but this was on a very old car) And I've done many valve jobs.

You probably didn't bother looking up the lubrication system used on the Subaru 360 either.

I still don't know what point you are arguing but it probably has nothing to do with what power source is better for mopeds.

And as I stated modern 2-cycle engine using oil injection to the bearings really has nothing to with being new except that it is faw newer than the concept of mixing gas with oil on those simple single cylinder jobs. Maybe I should have classified them as complex and simple engines.

I am sorry for missleading you.

Re: the power dispute.

I like NSU.

And wankel engines were even fitted to lawnmowers! great engines very smooth, but not quite as economical as a 4-cycle.

You sure are.

Ryan J wrote:

>

> I never stated that the oil injection in snowmobiles was to

> the bearings. You must have imagined that.

Oh yes you did sonny boy.

Here is what you said >

Hmmm,

lets see, pressure lubrication was an option on early Saab 2-cycle cars.

Came as standard on the Subaru 360- and suzuki later used a similar system that injected oil into the bearings and a tiny amount into the cylinder. Some modern 2-cycle snowmobiles also come with this. If you go to a motorcycle shop and look through their selection of 2-cycle oil some will have the text :for injector engines.

See that sentence in the middle about snowmobiles ?

Oh my... Wrong again.

Better luck next time.

Re: You sure are.

Ron Brown /

Fred,

I think this quote from Ryan's original post probably explains where he got most of his info. It does not explain why he has such a hard-on for 4 strokes.

Ron

>There is no conlusion this writing, it is inconclusive- maybe you have an opinion >over what the better type is.

>And if you really must have a source

>Here is one :General Power Mechanics- 1968 Mc Graw hill

Re: You sure are.

The funny thing is... he sounds very much like another uninformed young man from the Citrus state.

Affflaaaaaaaaaaac !

Re: You sure are.

Ron Brown /

Don't go diss'n my Motobecane horn!

aaaaahahahaha!

Good one Ron.... about on the same level as Waynes... "perhaps your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top"... one

hahaha ...... ; )

Re: aaaaahahahaha!

Ron Brown /

Also true! When you switch off a Motobecane, you switch the horn on. It then blows continuously at engine rpm until the engine stops. Best imitation of the AFLAC duck in distress I ever heard. : )

I think the idea is to warn you that the switch is off when you try to start it. It may also be a marketing ploy as everyone within hearing range turns and looks when you turn it off.

Re: You sure are.

I included this source because last time I posted, I was accused of not knowing what I'm talking about, or else I would have posted a source from where I got my information- Now people are telling me I don't know what I talking about because I did post a source. And as for four cycle engine I'm not all that much against them I do own a 4 stroke moped and a unusual one at that- Honda p50.

Re: You are a great source of misinformation

> Pressure lubed bearings means the oil is supplied under

> pressure.. those old CCI Suzuki's don't develop any

> pressure... they used Mikuni manufactured oil pumps that

> "trickled" the oil in.

>

> So they are NOT "pressure lubricated bearings"

Well if you want to get scientific about it, if the oil is trickled in then it is in fact under pressure. So you can go and eat your blah.

Re: You sure are.

Ron Brown /

Ah so...The ppm guy.

>I included this source because last time I posted, I was accused of not knowing >what I'm talking about, or else I would have posted a source from where I got my >information- Now people are telling me I don't know what I talking about because >I did post a source.

That has to be the most illogical piece of logic I ever read.

Re: You are a great source of misinformation

Ron Brown /

Fred,

That is so close to making sense, it's almost scary.

It is pressure lubrication and there are bearings in there. : )

Ron

the pressure is tooooo much

I bet 10 bucks I could put my finger over the orifice and stop the flow.

The last one to feed it to the bearings was ... about 20 years ago (I'd say it was the 1981 Suzuki TS185 Enduro... just before it was discontinued)

I want Ryan to explain rocket science to us next.

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