Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Ron,

I get the impression you know a lot about electricity, I'm a hack, but I try to understand as much as I can. In that thread that we were slamming "ollie" for being a clown, some good stuff came up, I wasn't sure if you missed it, or just had no response.

It's that one where we were talking about AC or DC, and I tried to make a general explanation about how a moped generated power, and what was happening--I also had some questions.

I think there's some important ideas, we should address, because "electrical" is one of those areas that can cause people so much trouble when trying to repair an old bike--- If we understand more about the individual parts, and what part they play in the larger system, we will be able to troubleshoot and fix more easily.

Anyway, check out that thread, or I can clip and paste it-- I was also asking Ree about if a TOMOS was AC or DC---

And everyone else-- Post questions or information about how the electrical system on your moped works-- Winter's coming, we ought to get some good information circulating (along with some heat....)

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Right,Wayne! I remember I was wanting to know why I can run a 12V DC headlight and 6volt DC tail and brake light on my Sebring and not have any trouble.But you know;`A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' in some instances,and it takes some pretty good delving into to understand basic electricity principles.Especially when mopeds don't always play by the DC rules which I am so used to.You see,I was told that what the moped is putting out is not really AC,but higher voltage DC(it does not truly alternate as AC does).Now before you jump straight up,Ron,I said.... `what I was told was'.....,not `what I'm convinced of'.You see,Wayne,when I did concrete work,many times there was no electricity at the job site,so I bought a kit which provided 110 volt or higher DC?from the truck's alternator.IT WORKED GREAT!! I even jack-hammered 20 tons of concrete slab out one day with a heavy-duty electric jack-hammer.It would run drills,saws,light bulbs,or any tool with a brush motor(not induction).It was a tremendous help and ran straight off the alternator.I never had any trouble with it.

Re: some basics

DC (direct current) - electrons always move in one direction

AC (alternating current) - electrons move in both directions (not at the same time)

regulated DC - electrons move in one direction at a fixed rate (typical)

undulating DC - electrons move in one direction at varying rate (not typical)

Many variations on the above, but not important to Mopeds.

Tungsten lamps (light bulbs found on mopeds) do not care in which direction the electrons move and work equally well on AC or DC.

The loads (lamps) in the electrical system must be kept to the original configuration or the risk of lamp burnout is high. The load provides the regulation.

Most, if not all Mopeds are AC. This is the simplest and most economical design.

It would be nice to have a reference manual for Moped electrical systems, but I can not imagine how much more basic the information can be than found in a typical Moped manual.

I have five pages in my Puch manual that seem to explain it all and give cautionary notes.

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Wayne,

..laughs and blows coffee all over the keyboard..., I recall that thread, there was so much wrong stuff and mis-information, some of it from people who got their information directly from god, that I bailed.

I did, however, decide to try to write a simple electrical guide. Ken's info is good, anyone got an electronic copy of the basic electrics he is talking about?

Ron

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

how come when i test my tomos i get 12 volts dc not ac then? also on my puch it is 6 volt dc. and im a car mechanic and im not so stupid about these things

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

The reason is because there usually is a DC circuit in a moped.

U.S. regulations from the late seventies specified a certain brightness to the tail & brake lights. Because the output of a magneto varies with speed, the lights on your bike would be dull when you were at a stoplight and the bike is idling and get brighter the faster you go. The way to stop this is to add a battery into the circuit, which gives a constant output. This way you can recharge the battery when your bike is traveling a high speed and the magneto is putting out more juice than you need; and then power the tail and brake lights with the battery when you are stopped and the output is low. One problem. A generator (magneto) produces AC current. Therefore you have to rectify the output, or convert it to DC to charge the battery (batteries are DC). Well, then why isn't the whole bike DC then you ask. This is because there are many losses occurring when you rectify the current and some things don't need to not dim. Sooooo, you use the battery system (which gives constant brightness to the lights) to the really important things like the tail and brake light that shouldn't dim at idle (important for safety reasons). On the other hand, the headlamp is relatively bright and large and doesn't need this type of treatment (Hey, I didn't say so, the U.S. government did - it is larger and brighter). So, there is a separate coil in the magneto that powers the things that can dim. You want to use AC current here because you can get away with it, it's simpler, the lights will end up bright enough anyway, and you would loose a lot of power in converting to DC. The horn can be DC or AC depending on the manufacturer. I have two of the same bike of different model years, and one has an AC horn and the other has a DC horn. I guess they just decided that their current setup wasn't what they wanted. Dunno. Although, I do admit, I do not know a lot about most of the brand bikes that y'all have, but all six of my bikes work like this. I think it is a rather "standard" setup. Hope this helps and isn't too confusing.

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

i know but all of the people lat time were asying that the whole bike(moped) was AC current but i know that is incorrect. the only part that is ac is the ignition system but the lighting on all vehicles are DC not ac.

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

my battery has been dead for years. so my lights dim and then brighten ... so i think i have ac electrical? if the batter worked ... then it would be dc?

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Wayne,

See what you started here!

This is why I ignored the other thread.

Oli, Roberto is basically right, but only for peds with a battery. This is most scooters but almost no peds.

If your peds do not have a battery, what kind of meter are you using?

Ron

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Miguel,

If you have a circuit designed for a battery, it is a dc circuit at the battery and the lights. What you do not have is a battery to absorb the excess output, normally used to charge the battery. The battery in a dc circuit acts as a voltage regulator, without it, the voltage can get high enough to burn out bulbs. This may be why you have a fuse box. Under these circumstances, a single fuse for the dc lighting circuit would protect all the bulbs, but I would think you would be blowing fuses all the time.

See my 15:30 post under this thread.

Ron

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Miguel,

Sorry, I meant my 15:48 under "Sachs Westlake electrical problem".

Ron

Re: Electrical (Hey Ron--!!)

Miguel,

Sorry, I meant my 15:48 under "Sachs Westlake electrical problem".

Ron

Re: Hope this helps

This is verbatim from my manual. Sorry I could not reproduce the illustrations.

From Puch manual

Ken--That's great!!

Awesome post--wow-- thanks a lot.

Re: Hope this helps

THANK YOU,KEN !! I'm runnin' copies of that off and I'm gonna try to understand that info. a little bit.I'm gonna store that info. with my copies of Fred's Guide on `How to fix your Moped'. Fantastic!

Re: Hope this helps

Ken,

Great! Thats as good an explaination as I have seen. I especially like the tail lamp operation quirk. It looks like that could send you round in circles for a while.

Ron

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