Replace your points w/electronic

Northern Tool and Eqip.( 1-800-533-5545 ) has electronic ignition conversion kits for single cylinder two and four stroke engines, PN 701214-C159 cost is $11.00. Never tried it, but for someone who's got ignition woes this might be your ticket.

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Mike (MA) /

Thanks for posting that Brian. I hadn't heard of a general-purpose ignition. I'm pretty curious about it, and for $11.99 (compared to prices of points, condensors and coils) how can you lose?

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Thanks,Brian! I'm gonna give them a call.It would be nice if it is that easy AND CHEAP.But I'm a little skeptical about it.Seems too good to be true.`Know what I mean', as Earnest P.Worrell would say?

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

I found that device in an older magazine,and it looks so simple.$11.00.....Could it really be.............?

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Hmmm, I'm a little bit skeptical too. Replacing a stator and flywheel, and buying a CDI all for $11 sounds a little too good to be true. That's what a true "kit" would have to have. I'm thinking that it's just a CDI unit (the type that requires an external HT Coil). These are manufactured by Piaggio for around $12 last time I looked at them. But you still don't have the HT Coil, stator, and flywheel. Keep us all posted though 'cause electronic ignition is definitely the way to go for reliability.

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

SteelToad /

This little dohickey looks too small to do everything, from the description, it looks like it just breaks the spark into lots of sparks. This in itself is a good thing and helps to burn the fuel better. What I cant seem to figure out is how it would wire in.

It has two wires, and one appears to be a ground. Anybody got a clue ??

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

At some point I replaced points with an electonic switch on a 2-cycle lawn mower. It woked very well, but it was engineered specifically for the lawnmower and included foolproof instructions. Beware the general purpose fixall.

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

I might try it on a `back-up' `ped but not on my main `ride'.And I'd carry the necessary tools to restore it to points if out on a trip when it fails.

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

mopedmonster /

wow that sounds pretty cool.

I plan on claling the tommorrow

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Tab Patterson /

Has anybody ever looked into this. I know it's a dead issue, but sounds like a great possibility.

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

I don't see why it wouldn't work...

You may need a few extra parts, but basically, I think its just an IC in ther that serves as a really high speed "switch". You wire it in in place of the points, and as it gets current from the coils, it gets triped.

I did a similar replacement on my CJ-7. It dropped right into the distributor...

I may just have to crab this and try it out on the Puch.

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

yeah, but...

in order to have a true electronic ignition.. you WOULD need a new flywheel and stator plate.

it may be a different stype of ignition.. but it definitely isnt true "electronic ignition".

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Hey guys,

This is nothing new! I put one of these on my Whizzer 2 years ago!! 5 minutes to install and works great!! I paid $15.00 for the one i have a at vintage bike meet in Bucyrus Ohio. They only replace the points. The flywheel and stator are the same.

Ike

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

That's what I thought...

So its a pretty quick conversion on the Whizzer? It was on my Jeep...

Re: Ike, You replace your points w/electronic

Hi Ike,

You said you added one of these little electro-ignitions to your Whizzer... I just got mine in the mail today from Northern Tool. There are instructions, but they imply that it's not crucial _where_ the module is screwed down. So if it can go anywhere, how does it know when to create spark (i.e. break)? And how can timing me adjusted?

Here are my guesses to those questions:

1) It senses piston position by sensing the capacitance seen thru the sparkplug, and fires just before that capacitance becomes minimum value;

2) Timing can't be adjusted at all.

Thanks,

Mike (MA)

Re: Ike, You replace your points w/electronic

Freeman Montgomery /

"Electronic Ignition" is the elimination of points. from 1973 to the mid 80's American Automoblies had ignition systems that did not have points, but they also did not have a CDI unit. An 'electronic ignition' does not have to have a CDI unit to replace the points, just a way of turning low tension voltage to the coil (6 or 12v) on and off to induce high tension (15 to 50kv) voltage in the coil. usually on a regular unit, they use a pick-up unit in the distributor to replace thwe points wired to a transistor (an electronic 'switch') to turn the current leading to the coil on and off.

Re: Ike, You replace your points w/electronic

Tab Patterson /

Same here. I just got mine today. How does this thing work? Do I even need to pull the magneto apart? It seems too simple!

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has actually gotten the ignition kit to work on a moped engine. I see some potential problems with trying to use it on a moped magneto. I think the magneto on a Whizzer engine works more like lawn mower engine than a moped engine.

Paul

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Hi Paul,

My module & installation instructions has stumped 2 of my electrical engineering co-workers, so I'm not overly hopeful. There are only 2 wires coming off the module (see attached photo), and one is supposed to go to case-ground. So it's impossible for the unit to "break" a connection. The best it could do would be to attempt to pull the line to GND. Can you explain the difference between a moped engine & a lawnmower engine?

Thanks,

Mike (MA)

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Mike,

That looks just like the one i have on my WHIZZER! The Whizzer engine is a 4 stroke! Most lawn mower engines are 4 strokes. But the magnetos are very similar on 2 and 4 stroke engines.

Ike

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

I don't have a schematic of what is inside the ignition kit, so I have to make some assumptions.

The ignition kit is made for lawn mower and weedwacker-type type engines which use a different type of magneto and coil . Most of those engines (both 2 and 4 stroke) use an external armature-coil that serves as a primary magneto drive coil as well as the ignition coil primary and secondary (see pic).

http://home.flash.net/~lauras34/moped/spec/armtwor.jpg

The flywheel of a lawn mower engine has a single magnet embedded in the flywheel. The ignition timing on many small lawn mower engines is fixed.

The ignition kit is placed in series with the primary coil of the armature (one wire to ground and apparently the other wire to the armature wire that would have went to the mechanical points). The kit probably senses current in the primary of the armature-coil and opens the primary to fire the plug when the primary current is at a maximum. This occurs as the magnet in the flywheel is passing by the armature-coil.

The next pic shows a typical Bosch ignition from a Batavus moped.

http://home.flash.net/~lauras34/moped/spec/batmagr.jpg

In a moped magneto there are three coils for the ignition: the ignition drive coil, the ignition coil primary, and the ignition coil secondary. One wire of the ignition kit would need to be connected to the ignition drive coil and the other wire to ground (the two wires would be connected to where the points are connected but with the points disconnected). The kit would then sense current in the ignition drive coil and fire when the current is at a maximum.

A potential problem with trying to use the kit on a moped is that a moped magneto has multiple magnets in the flywheel for the purpose of generating enough power in the lighting coils. Assume that the ignition kit senses current generated by each magnet during a cycle. If there are four magnets in the flywheel, the ignition kit would fire four times during a revolution: at TDC, BDC, and when the piston is halfway up and halfway down the cylinder. Firing the plug when the piston is halfway up the cylinder could damage the engine. This would be equivalent to setting the ignition timing extremely advanced. Firing at BDC would ignite the fresh fuel-air that just entered the cylinder.

Some four-stroke lawnmower engines fire at TDC twice during a crankshaft revolution since the flywheel does two revs per complete cycle. This is not a problem on a 4-stroke since the 2nd TDC firing occurs when only exhaust gases are in the cylinder.

The ability to easily set the ignition timing mechanically would also be lost since it is no longer determined by mechanical points. Timing would have to be done with a timing light. The timing could still be altered by rotating the stator plate. This would change the position of the ignition drive coil relative to the magnets in the flywheel and change the ignition timing, similar to how a CDI ignition works.

I may be wrong, but the possibility of multiple magnets in the moped magneto firing the plug multiple times during a revolution is what concerns me the most. I would try it first on a moped engine that I don't care about. It should work well with lawn mower engines, though.

Paul

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the explainer. My coworkers also thought that the module sensed current and probably fired when the current was maximum. When I told the folks that I was pretty sure there were multiple magnets in a moped flywheel, they just looked stumped. I don't have any moped engines that I want to destroy, and I have plenty of moped projects that look more promising, so I think the module is going back w/ a scolding for not describing how it really works.

Thanks,

Mike (MA)

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Tab Patterson /

I tried mine today on the Magnum. It was a no go. Very easy to figure out, but nothing happened when I hooked it all up. I tried it using both polarity schemes, too. Took it off and she started right up. Oh, well...

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Thanks for following thru and posting the results, tabpat. We've been talking about this product for over a year now, so it's good to finally have some data on it.

-Mike (MA)

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Did either of you call northern tool for help?

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

No, but I called them for an RMA. I doubted that they would have much knowledge of the finer points of 2-stroke ignition. Paul D's explanation of the difference between moped & lawnmower ignitions convinced me that I understood how the module works for lawnmowers, and that the same principle cannot be applied to peds.

-Mike (MA)

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

If anyone knows what company actually manufactures the ignition kit I would like to know. Maybe the name of the company is printed on the module. I can try to get a schematic and see what is actually inside of it. I may buy one anyway and bench test it electrically just to see how it works.

Paul

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Hi tabpat.

Did it sound like it fired at all? Did you you try a spark test to see if it was even sparking? Just curious.

Paul

Re: Replace your points w/electronic

Hi PAul,

Well, the module was manufactured in China. But it was "manufactured for Stens", an Indian parts company. They're on the web, www.stens.com

-Mike (MA)

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