Is it stealing...?

Moped Army, help me out. Is it stealing if you sneak in the middle of the night, take 2 mopeds, then leave the money for them in the mailbox? This guy told me he would sell me his mopeds, 50 bucks apice, so I went to buy them today and all of a sudden they are not for sale. He told me he has no intention of fixing them up (which means they are going to continue to sit outside, they have been sitting for 8 years), and wouldn't give me a reason why he wont sell them now. All he would say is "they are not for sale". I'm not the kind of guy to steal them (if I was, I would have stolen them allready), so I've come to the conclusion that it wont be stealing if I leave him the cash for them, at the price he set for them. What do you all think???

Re: Is it stealing...?

Ron Brown /

Should be an interesting bill of sale....

Re: Is it stealing...?

Arterious /

I would consider that stealing. The deal was not confirmed no money was exchanged so he was able to pull out if he wanted. I think the guy is a complete ass for changing his mind without reason tho.

Re: Is it stealing...?

Yes it's stealing, it is also an old ploy, used to drive up the price of an object, you might see if he would be willing to part with one of the prized antiques he is hanging onto........perhaps you were alittle too eager to purchase them,, after all one mans trash is another mans treasure..on the other hand hell, who wouldnt jump on two peds for a hundred bucks?

Re: Is it stealing...?

HA! Yep its grand larseny, and think ROG is correct about tring to pump up the price.... if you decide to get them, Don`t drop the soap! Doug D

Re: Is it stealing...?

I'm trying to look at it like this: its not really stealing, but rescuing. These peds need a good home (mine), and someone who will take good care of them (me). I guess I should add that the man who has them is confined to a personal mobility scooter, and on oxygen. I would guess he is 70-80. He hasnt rode them since his wife died, 8 years ago. I would feel diferently about it if I knew he was going to fix them up, or even stick them in a shed for the winter. But he is not. They are going to continue to lay on their sides in the dirt (he doesn't even have them on their stands), outside for another colorado winter, which makes me sad/mad/frustrated.

Re: Is it stealing...?

chuck russo (va) /

dude go for it, and leave like 125 in the mail box to make him happy. he is just doing that to raise up the price, go back to him in like a 2 weeks and offer him the money again

Re: Is it stealing...?

when you get a price from him hand him the cash right there. That way he can't back out or otherwise be a shit about it. If it's left in the mailbox, sombody could walk off with it. It always sucks to deal wih people like that.

"Old age and treachery always out does youth and ambition"

Re: Is it stealing...?

maybe he's just lonely and likes you coming over to talk about them, sounds as if you already know some of the story, he might give them to you for some chores around the house and companionship? here we go with the other hand again, he might just be a cantankerous old ass but even they like some company as a rule

Re: Is it stealing...?

Arterious /

dude FYI if you take them an leave the money in the mailbox the SOB can call the police, say you stole em and mention nothing of the cash and theres a damn good chance that he would win that war.

Re: Is it stealing...?

if he's an ass ... take the peds. he probably wouldn't report them stolen. but do not leave cash or any other "calling card". if he knows you ... then you might be in trouble.

try to reason w/ him. maybe he will part w/ them for some higher price ... or whatever. maybe he's just lonely. who knows?

but if you take them, do not leave money. if you feel guilty, donate that money to a worthy charity.

Re: Is it stealing...?

Stealing mopeds. That's something I can't endorse.

Would he let you work on them in his yard? Then when you buy it from him, he can turn a larger profit. And you'll know you're paying for a solid machine.

But, seriously-- if you steal it, and later it is stolen from you, you'll know it was a bad idea.

Re: Is it stealing...?

chuck russo (va) /

what kinda peds are they?

Re: Is it stealing...?

I defintly wouldnt steal a moped or advise it. I personally think stealing is horrible. Just because he keeps them in bad condition and probly doesnt care about them doesnt mean that you have the right to steal it. Would you like it if i came to your house and saw that maybe you didnt keep your ped or peds in tip top condition and i stole them? didnt think so. Go back to him and ask if he will let them go for alittle more, if not? let it go.

Re: Is it stealing...?

I wouldnt take them if I thought there was a way he could trace them back to me. He doesn't know anything about me, not my name, address, place of employment, anything. This guy is an old grumpy bastard, his daughter and husband live with him, so I don't think he is trying to prolong the transaction for company. I've been thinking pretty seriously about this, and am probably not going to just take them. I'm thinking I will drive by his house a few times a day, and when I see that he isn't home (but his daughter IS), talk to her and see if she knows he changed his mind. If she doesn't know, there is a pretty good chance I can give her the $, get the peds, and get the hell out of there before anybody is the wiser. (But this plan could cause trouble if he shows up while I'm paying her/loading up the mopeds). The peds are yamaha qt50's, and in pretty good shape.

Re: Is it stealing...?

"Bringing respect to the moped..."

By stealing them?

By manipulating his daughter?

They belong to him. Who cares how he treats them? He owns them. End of story. I've had things stolen from me. Did I deserve it? No. My property was taken from me against my will. Sounds like you're contemplating the same thing...

Just my two cents...

Re: Is it stealing...?

What gives you the right to decide where a good "home" for his mopeds are?

they're his, not yours.

Stealing is stealing period.

if you leave money in the mailbox.......

you're not buying them, your buying your own concience.......

and if that can be bought for $100, you might as well go into the house, knock the invalid over the head and steal his wallet too, scumbag.

It IS stealing.

You're all right. I was angry at him for changing his mind, and throwing a fit. When I get angry I can come up with crazy plots of revenge, then try and find a way to justify them to myself. If he wants to keep them, that is his descision. I feel like quite an ass now that I'm not angry anymore, I was acting like a little kid whose mom wouldn't buy him a toy at the store.I feel guilty for just thinking about it. I still think it's shitty that he backed out on the deal, and though it was just a verbal agreement and a handshake, it was still a deal. But fuck it, its only mopeds, right? There's probably hundreds of them sitting in my town waiting to be found. And I will find them, when I do, I'm taking plenty of cash so that I dont go through this again.

I really like your suggestion, Wayne. I am going to go back and talk to him, see if he would be willing to let me work on them there or something. I need to change my mindset, make this a postive situation instead of being a manipulative, selfish S.O.B.

Why some folks refuse sale.

Reeperette /

You know, I have refused an offer a couple of times, and one more than well worth the value of what the guy wanted....and there's reasons for this, sometimes.

I hadda guy offer to buy the "frankenbike" from me, at a good bit of change and I told him ain't no way...and why ?

Cause I knew the bike was a friggin deathtrap and VERY likely to kill an inexperienced rider (which this guy was) when the back wheel came off or the brakes failed at some inopportune moment, not to mention the lights were a nightmare rigup that would cease to work if you even looked at it funny.

Besides the potentive legal repercussions of selling someone a moped that has serious mechanical defects (in this day and age where you can pour coffee on yourself deliberately and then sue the restaurant...and win...) there are also moral implications to it besides....I mean, how would one feel if they sold a 'ped they knew was dangerous to a rookie and he got himself killed on it ?

Now, I think the guys a jerk for backin out on you after making a deal, but I suspect some kind of emotional issue there for his reasoning, for example, if some member of his family hurt themselves on one.....he might see it as 'protecting you' in some way from dangerous activity....that's not his business, of course, but he may mean well.

Always try to think through why people do things that seem to make no sense at first, and you will usually come up with at least an idea why, if you ponder it long enough.

My advice would be to assure the guy of your mechanical skill and try to negotiate, and if you wanna hedge your bets, perhaps offer to repair both and sell one back at a parts-cost price....in case he has an emotional attachment to em or something.

So, he may have a "good" (to him) reason, or he might just be a jerkwad, you never know, but it's at least worth thinkin it alla way through and givin it a shot.

But if I suddenly saw those two peds on Ebay...on the other hand, I'd retaliate somehow, sure. (the image of a carton of eggs comes to mind...)

Worth at least tryin to figure out which one he is.....rather than assumin, cause assumption is the root of all majeur screwups.

-Ree

Re: Is it stealing...?

ProbeDroid42 /

Good to see you come to your senses, Vespalad. Stealing is wrong. Either offer the guy more money or just forget about it. Its like you said, its only a pair of mopeds. Not really worth breaking the law for, or turning yourself into a thief.

By the way, where in junction do you live? I live in montrose, which is a little less than an hour away. Maybe we can go for a ride together before it gets too cold.

Re: Is it stealing...?

I'm down for a ride anytime. My days off are monday and tuesday. I live in downtown grand junction. Email me at Vesplad21@aol.com and we can work out the details.

Re: Is it stealing...?

Crisis--cincinnati /

I think that you would be saving those mopeds pitiful lives...take em!

Re: Is it stealing...?

ok ... i don't condoen stealing in most circumstances. but it all depends on context. i respect property not for it's abstract principle, but for it's use. for example, if i'm starving and another person has an orchard full of oranges that he's going to let just rot ... i have no qualms about "stealing" enough to eat. in fact, i think he's stealing from the poor.

yes, i'm anarcho-syndicalist. so i have little abstract respet for property. i will defend my moped for personal esoteric reasons, but not because it's my "property". i see my moped and i as sharing a symbiotic relationship ... i gave her a name (lucia).

offer the guy a fair price for them. try to reason w/ him. but if he's just going to let valuable resources that could be used by other people just rot in a heap ... then you should LIBERATE those mopeds.

of course, i also think hoarding mopeds is horrible. so if you have tons of mopeds and will not share or sell them to others yourself, then you're just greedy. if you actually use them, share them, and such, maybe ... but i don't ever plan on having more than three running mopeds. and i think that's far too extravagant. (i have two running now, but have always told anyone to feel free to borrow the other and i have it specifically so that i can go riding w/ friends who don't own mopeds yet).

yes, stealing is wrong. but it all depends on context. the rich steal from the poor constantly, yet we're more prone to protect their rights than those of the poor. expropriate those two peds and liberate them! raise the black flag!

YOUR WRONG Miguel

gimmyjimmy /

"thou shall not steal"

you own a few mopeds(oranges), how would you feel if you had your precious lucia "liberated"....

Reeperette said it right,

"moped theives are reprehensible, dispicable, slime"

Re: YOUR WRONG Miguel

thou shall not steal can mean many things .... as i said, it's all about context.

the rich steal food from the poor on a daily basis. but we don't punish them, we reward them. if a poor person stole a loaf of bread, we'd punish them severely. but if i hoard all the bread i want, it's my right. even the original founders of liberal economics (locke and smith) held to the fair use principle.

anyhow ... i ride my lucia daily. i lock up and protect her. i don't hoard twenty-plus mopeds and never let others see them. i've known people who've bought clearly stolen mopeds (stolen from their friends mind you) and then won't let anyone even look at it to see if was their vin#). in my opinion, that's theft.

we may disagree, and that's fine. and i know that situational ethics can lead to slippery slopes.

i also urged vespalad not to take those peds. i think he should reason w/ the person. but if the person has abandoned them, there might be good cause to take them. even if just in the name of recycling.

but that's just my opinion. everyone else is welcome to their own.

Re: YOUR WRONG Miguel

You said it perfectly, miguel. We are all entitled to our own opinions. And I am like you in that I have (and plan to get more) extra mopeds so that others can go on rides with me. I am trying to get to the point where I am constantly working on a ped, so that when it is finished I can either A) ride it B) sell it or C) keep it as an extra for our group rides. To me, 3 mopeds doesn't sound like enough. But I an NOT a moped hoarder in that I dont let anybody near them - quite the oppisite - I encourage people that are interested to come on rides or even come just to watch me turn wrenches on them. I've been spreading the moped word around my circle of friends, and currently have 4 people wanting their own. Which is so cool, cause I love working on them almost as much as I love riding them.

So that you all know, I am NOT going to steal them, and am NOT going to take them and leave the cash (forced sale). I was pissed off when I came up with that idea, and have since calmed down and realized how selfish and immature I was being. If I was going to steal them, I would have done it the first night I saw them. But I'm not like that. All my mopeds/scooters have been obtained legally, and I plan to keep it that way.

I am going to focus my attention on buying a Vespa bravo for now, then go back to those 2 peds in a couple weeks. Maybe he will decide to sell them closer to christmas, when everybody is hard up for cash. Or maybe he likes watching them rust into the ground. Who knows?

Re: YOUR WRONG Miguel

gimmyjimmy /

good for you kid!

Re: Is it stealing...?

Ahra Majniu /

Maybe one of those mopeds belonged to his wife or so...

I think you should ask him about that.

good point

I bet that is a part of it, maybe a BIG part. But I don't want to just bring up his wife who has passed on, you know?

Re: yes but do it

yes it is stealing, and yes it is wrong, but if the guy is going to be stupid like that i would steal them with out paying or just smash them out of rage. the thing i hate most is when people bullshit like that guy did.

dave h

ps if you dont steal the peds, at least break the guys windows or something.

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