Battery on Puch

Has anyone successfully installed a battery on a Puch 6 volt 7 wire system? If so would you please post the details?

I would assume that a diode is needed to keep the battery from backfeeding but I am unsure where to install it since I don't want to tear apart the flywheel and it's guts.

Nick

Re: Battery on Puch

InfectedBootSector /

Did you find a rechargeable 6volt battery?

Re: Battery on Puch

Yep, two of them that are "usually" used for security system/fire alarm panels. 6v 4.5 amp nicad rechargeable. 1 should be enough to keep my lites "up" at a stoplite if I can figure out how to connect it.

Nick

Re: Battery on Puch

InfectedBootSector /

I'll look at my schematic when I get home... see what I can come up with... let me know where you go those batteries..... I'de like to get one...

Re: Battery on Puch

Try http://www.power-sonic.com/ and look at the 6 volt stuff.

I "acquired" mine by trading work favors. I wired up a couple of alarm jacks and the alarm guy gave me two batteries.

Nick

Re: Battery on Puch

InfectedBootSector /

I actually work at a company that does alarm stuff.... I'll see if we have any...

Re: Battery on Puch

The output of the magneto is basically AC. I know my meter will not measure it on the DC scale. On the AC scale I get 6 volts. Try it on your meter and tell me what you get. If it is AC you may need to rectify to DC for the battery to be effective. Sounds interesting. Keep at it.

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Intalling a battery into an AC lighting circuit is more involved than just putting the battery in the line. If you look at your headlight connections, you see they have two wires going to it, and both are power.

I don't know how it all works, but a DC system is simple enough for me to figure out. Going from one to the other looks to be quite complicated. I've seen one guy ruin the electrical system on old Yamaha 80 because he thought the headlight should go on along with the taillight when the key was turned on and the engine was off. Needless to say, the lighting coils were fryed when the battery current got into that circuit.

Jim

puchspec.jpg

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Nope, not AC. On a 7 wire Puch there are two wires feeding the headlite/speedolite. Black/Yellow is the + lead that is switched at the headlite switch and Brown is chassis ground. (Brown is chassis ground throughout the entire bike). Yellow at the harness is the + feed into the headlite switch. So......

I am believing that if I install my battery + on the Yellow harness wire (with a diode to keep from backfeeding) and - ground to chassis ground I should be alright.....except when it comes to the tail lite which gets it's + feed from the (Grey) wire on the harness when the light switch is on or on (Blue/Green) whenever the brakes are switched. The tail lite is the toughie since it gets it's power two ways.

My guess is that no-one has ever done this before. If I figure it out I'll post it here. Time to start drawing out the schematic. It would be nice to know what was connected in the stator/flywheel though. Anyone got a repair manual on 7-wire Puch?

Nick

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Send me your email and I will attach everything in my manual on Puch electrical. The wiring and wire colors you describe so far are the same as mine.

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Thanks! That'll be a huge help!

havok@fuse.net

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Ron Brown /

Nick,

If your Puch has DC power then by definition, it must allready have diodes to convert what comes out of the flywheel alternator which can only produce AC.

I think you are confused by the fact that you have a hot wire and a ground wire. This does not make it DC, AC is wired exactly the same way.

If you have no other way to test, put a diode in series with your headlamp, either way around and fire up the ped. If the light goes out or does not change, you have DC, if it dims significantly you have AC.

If it is DC I'll email you a buck! : )

Ron

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Oi,

A few thoughts...there is no reason for the manufacturer to rectify the current unless your ped already has a battery (all other electrical devices can run either AC or DC), so I think it's safe to say your ped is AC. To successfully rectify the current you need two "power" wires coming from the magneto that are 180 degrees out of phase (meaning the two coils on the magneto have to be opposite each other). These wires would plug into the rectifier and another one would go to the battery (I'm not sure if your ped is positive or negative ground so I can't tell you which terminal). The problem here is that you probably only have one coil for lighting, not the two needed...and you probably have a three coil magneto so no two coils will be 180 degrees out of phase. Soooo, I can't figure out how you would do it. My experience has been that AC (non-battery) systems are so much more reliable and easy to trouble shoot (There are much less wires). Most folks I know spend a ton of time trying to get rid of the battery 'cause it's a real pain to have to deal with: but I understand why you would want one. Safety is always a good consideration, which is mostly being seen. That's why I like the "loud exhaust" method! Well, hope that helps some.

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

In a way you are correct. I am not going to debate (much) exactly what the power source is out of the magnetos in the stator/flywheel but......

To be AC you have to have a return and that is not present. IE: The neutral wire in your house wiring.

The Puch has a "pulsed" voltage source of + 6V and chassis ground. That's it. And Puch 7-wire "may" have 4 sources which will mean I have two that are 180 degrees out of phase so I should be able to rectify and produce DC. After cleaning it up with a good capacitor that is.

So, if I leave the coil feed alone and only mess with the lights I should be able to do this but we'll see. hmmm....6v one side, 6v the other. With some capacitors and a voltage regulator I could convert to 12v for the lights if the output is enough to produce a charge.

Nick

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Puch 7-Wire has 4 seperate +6 volt feeds. At least at the connection block and cable harness.

Grey to tail lite

Green to brake switches

Yellow to headlite switch

Blue/Black to horn switch

Unless two of four wires feed from the same magneto coil then I'll have 4 magneto coils and then the possibility for the 180 degree out-of-phase condition is greater. Also the "possibility" of converting the lights to 12V exists if the charge is great enough (which I doubt). My current 6v 21 watt headlite and 6V 10 watt tail lite dim at idle. Ya can't make chicken salad out of chicken.......poop. <---replace with appropriate colorful metaphor.

Nick

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

One more thing....180 degrees is not exactly needed. Look at your house. 110v 60Hz 3 phase. 360 divided by 3 is 120 degrees out of phase. Alot (most) of your home electronics convert this source to DC.

Yeh, that's it.....I think I'll go have a drink now 'cuz you all are making me try to remember too much. :)

Nick

Re: I'll bring the marshmallows

Ron Brown /

Nick,

You are a few pickles short of a sandwich here! : )

>To be AC you have to have a return and that is not present. IE: The neutral wire >in your house wiring.

If you have figured out some kind of DC circuit that does not require a "return", what do you call the ground side of the circuit?

Take a coil, ground one end of it, swing a magnet close to it and the open end will swing an equal amount positive and negative as the magnet passes. You can half wave rectify this with a single diode but half of the power will be lost.

Household current is not 3 phase. The wires coming into your house provide 2 110v lines and a neutral. You get 220 by connecting between the two 100 volt lines, seems to me this is 2 phases, 180 apart. 3 phase would give you about 207v between any two phases..

You are right about home electronics, however, if they need significant power they use an isolation transformer to eliminate the ground, then a full wave rectifier.

If you can find someone with an oscilloscope, look at your peds power, you will be enlightened.

Ron

Re: There is a way

I believe, there is a way you might accomplish a battery (rechargable) operated (auxillary) tail light. So, if you are determined to proceed with this, here goes. Connect a diode to the yellow wire, connect the diode to a selector switch, connect a terminal of the battery to the selector switch, connect your auxillary taillight to the selector switch. Connect the other side of the battery to ground (any brown wire) The two position selector switch is always connected to the battery and can select the diode or the auxillary light. During the day the switch selects the diode (the charging path) and charges the battery. At night, the switch selects the auxillary light or you can select it only when you stop for a traffic light. I can not predict the extent to which the battery will be charged. A DC current meter in series is required. It depends on the dynamics of the coil and the battery. Be sure the diode is in correctly or the battery could burn something up. Better yet, put 10 ohms in the diode leg to current limit the connection from the battery to your ped lights. Good luck and proceed at your own risk. My legal disclaimer is: I only believe this will work, I am not certain

Re: There is a way

I think it'll be a little more complicated than that but thanks for the input. Here's why...

Yellow (Yellow black out of switch) feeds the headlite and speedo lite

Green (Blue/Green out of switch) feeds the brake lite

Grey feeds the tail lite

Grey is the one that puzzles me. There must be a voltage sensor on Yellow (to headlite) in the stator that activates grey (to tail lite) when the headlite is turned on.

So, I'll have to move the Grey feed and connect it in with the headlite switch for this to work.

I think another way is to run two small 6V batteries (which I have :) ) Both are 4.5 amp.

At the connecting block.....

Yellow to + on Battery 1 (with diode of course)

Ground the - of Battery 1 to a brown or chassis

Disconnect grey at block and extend it (the tail lite end) to connect to Yellow/Black either at speedo or headlite

....this will cover the headlite/speedo/tail lite

Drain will be ~36 watts here

Green to + on Battery 2 (diode)

Ground the -

...this will cover the brake lites

Drain is 10 watts when used.

Like I ever do much riding at nite but I'd like to figure this out. Anyone know the exact Voltage/Current outputs on these feeds?

Nick

Re: There is a way

nick,

did you ever get this to work? i do alot of night riding and have been wondering the same things.

-brandon

Re: There is a way

Woah. You just pulled up a post that is almost five years old! Is Nick even still here?

Re: There is a way

Thought I'd have an input here, why don't you just use a full wave bridge recitifier (I have a schematic if anyone wants it) to convert the voltage from AC to DC, then run the voltage to what ever you are using to charge the battery. You get your 6Volts of power DC from there. Your battery can supply 4.5Ahr, this means that if your drain from the Head light/Speedo/Tail light is 36Watts than your battery can go for 3 Hours before it will die just powering the lights on its own with no help from the moped if you had the batteries in parallel giving you 6 Volts and 9 Amps. Now you are going to want a voltage regulator to keep it at 6 Volts so you don't blow out the battery on accident. Just one diode isn't going to convert it to DC for you.

So now you have your DC voltage, your battery, and your lights. I think that if you just hook all your connections to the battery you should be good, do NOT hook them to the magneto, this may mess up all your voltage doodads and blow something out. Instead just use your magneto to charge your battery, run all of your connections from the battery to the lights, brake switches, all that good stuff.

Time for a diagram incase you can't follow:

Speedo Light

Magneto----Full Wave Bridge Rectifier---Head Light

Tail Light/Switches

I suppose if any one wants I could make up a schematic, I am in NO way saying this will DEFFINATLY work, I will NOT be held responisible for anything that prevents this from happening, try at your own risk, I'm not saying this will go wrong but I don't want anyone to come back and be mad at me if it doesn't.

E-mail me with questions if you want

(>'')>

Re: There is a way

Ignore that diagram all together, I made it wrong and didn't realize it untill I hit the submit button, sorry about that.

(>'')>

Re: There is a way

hmmm this post is so old.

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